Of Swords and Soulmates
Is this a kissing book? Of Swords and Soulmates features two couples (and sometimes more), with varying reading preferences and experiences, as they read, listen, and sometimes watch romantasy stories and discuss plot, fantasy elements, romance, spice, theories, and more. Join us for our non-expert opinions as we discuss, argue, rave, rant, and hopefully entertain. We may just help you find your next reading obsession or at least contribute to that TBR list!
Of Swords and Soulmates
Tropes - Enemies to Lovers: When Hate Ignites Passion
Why do we find ourselves so drawn to stories where characters who initially hate each other end up falling madly in love? The enemies to lovers trope has captivated audiences across centuries, from classic literature to blockbuster films and bestselling novels. In this episode, we unpack what makes this storytelling pattern so irresistibly compelling.
First, we break down what literary tropes actually are—not the negative clichés some might assume, but useful storytelling tools that help readers find patterns they enjoy. Think of tropes as a shared language that helps navigate the overwhelming world of books and entertainment. When someone mentions "enemies to lovers," most romance readers immediately understand the emotional journey they're signing up for.
The appeal of watching hatred transform into passion runs deep. We explore how this transformation taps into our belief that people can change, perspectives can shift, and even the most opposed individuals might find connection. There's something uniquely satisfying about witnessing characters move from conflict to compassion, creating an intense emotional arc that feels earned when done well.
Our hosts share their favorite examples of enemies to lovers across media—from ancient Greek myths like Hades and Persephone to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, from Batman and Catwoman's complicated relationship to modern romance bestsellers by Sarah J. Maas, Holly Black, and Carissa Broadbent. We also highlight beloved film examples including You've Got Mail, The Proposal, and Ten Things I Hate About You.
Whether you're a longtime romance reader or just curious about what makes certain story patterns so popular, this episode offers insights into one of fiction's most enduring and beloved tropes. Have you fallen for enemies to lovers stories? Listen now and join the conversation about why watching foes become forever keeps us turning pages and coming back for more.
Links from the News Segment and Show:
- This episode is all about the Enemies to Lovers trope!
- Tropes are literary devices or storytelling patterns used as shortcuts when describing or discussing stories
- Common Tropes in Romantasy
- Love triangle
- Chosen one
- Found family
- Forced proximity
- Enemies to Lovers
- Article about tropes in books
- Mari and Sarah (from Hissin and Kissin podcast) are going to be hosting a panel on Monster Romance 101 at Dragon Con on Thursday (Aug 28) at 10pm Eastern
- Instagram Link from Hissin and Kissin
- Come by in person (Hilton Galleria 6) or watch the Dragon Con Digital Media feed on Twitch
Follow us:
Instagram - @ofswordsandsoulmates
Goodreads - http://www.goodreads.com/ofswordsandsoulmates
Views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the participants. The hosts make no claim to be literary experts and their opinions are exactly that opinions. All creative works discussed or reviewed are the intellectual property of the creators of said stories and is being used under the Fair Use Doctrine.
Mari:Hello and welcome to Of Swords and Soulmates, a podcast where we read, watch and discuss romanticist stories. I'm one of your hosts, mari, and with me I have Kelly.
Kelly:Hey everyone, it's Kelly. We also have Ashley.
Ashley:Hey guys, it's Ashley. We also have Jonathan.
Jonathan:Hey y'all. It's me JP, and I prefer Cocoa. Puffs I prefer Fru fruity pebbles over cocoa pebbles Just going in for the deep stuff today. Yeah, I just like the colorful pebbles. The colorful pebbles.
Ashley:Do they have a taste difference? Like for sure.
Jonathan:No, it all tastes like sugar, although I will say my favorite kind of milk is chocolate. Oh, I feel like that's important Because somebody once I've all tastes like sugar, although I will say my favorite kind of milk is chocolate.
Ashley:Oh, I feel like that's important, because somebody once I read something once where all the fruit loops were the same flavor oh, you know no matter the color I do, I do.
Jonathan:I will say that in the and this is this ties in in the spirit of of romanacy, with shrek, when shrek and burger king got together and made their their slushy drink, they made it green, but they gave it a cherry flavor and I think that's terrible. Yeah, that's terrible. It's like if you're gonna make, if you're making red food, it's gotta taste red. If you're making green food, make it taste green like Gatorade.
Ashley:Make it taste the color that should be somebody there should be a candy out there that we like oh yeah that.
Mari:I love that we're going for the deep stuff I have been cinnamon toast crunch girl all the way all the if we were gonna get the, the sugary cereal, which we didn't do that often, but when we did it was growing up like it was. Yeah, it was cinnamon toast crunch 100 oh, so good that's a good choice I don't think I've ever had cinnamon toast crunch.
Ashley:Are you serious? I'm not kidding.
Jonathan:Well, you know what. Put it in a cart, put it individual one, so you don't have to commit to a whole box.
Mari:You know, just in case you don't want the whole box oh, that's fair.
Ashley:You know I love a deal. I don't like paying full price for things that will end up disappointing me Just a little taste test. So the individual one is probably a very good call, mari, good job.
Jonathan:I'm going to go out on a limb here and just let you know that there's probably a little risk that that won't get eaten in our house.
Mari:Kelly, what cereal did you like growing up? It's covered I think Rice Krispies. Oh, Rice Krispies are good.
Jonathan:Did you do the ad hoc sugar? No, it's just Rice. Krispies, sometimes Cheerios.
Kelly:That's pretty much it.
Mari:Rice Krispies is good. We do added sugar. I remember the Captain Crunch too was good. I like Captain Crunch and O's like Quaker O's cereal that would tear up the roof of your mouth but was so good oh, okay, but we are not here to talk cereal, believe it or not?
Ashley:No it.
Kelly:But we are not here to talk cereal believe it or not, today we'll be discussing the enemies to lovers trope.
Mari:But first let's discuss a little bit about what a trope is. So I think we basically wanted to do some of these episodes where we kind of just talk in general about tropes and about some of the things that we kind of throw around and talk about in some of our more in-depth episodes. But not everyone may know what we're talking about. We may not all have the same shared language or you know points of reference when we talk about it. And this is something I realize sometimes when I get out of my bubble and talk to people who don't read a ton of books and I start to use some of these terms and you see people's eyes either glaze over or they start asking what do you mean? So I think it's good to kind of break it down sometimes so people know what we mean when we say some of these things. So in general tropes I know that before I got into reading a lot of books and reviewing them and talking about them and doing social media stuff with books, I kind of thought of the word trope as a negative thing. If something is tropish it's bad.
Mari:But tropes are not necessarily a bad thing. They're basically just a literary device or storytelling patterns that authors use as shortcuts for describing books and stories. They're not really good, they're not really bad, they're just a tool like anything else. And it's kind of like and I'm not 100% sure I'm using the right term here, but it's like a nomenclature, so you know how, like when you're scientifically describing animals or plants, you have like the genus and the family and all that stuff. Tropes are kind of like that for books. You can describe a book and you can say, oh, this is an enemies to lovers with found family and there's a, you know one horse trope and people generally have an idea of what they're getting into when, when you say those tropes and you can be.
Jonathan:You can be attracted towards like a specific trope as well, like you might enjoy. You might find that you enjoy certain styles or certain story lines, and so when you walk into a bookstore it can be overwhelming but they're all trying to get your attention shapes.
Jonathan:Well, it's all the same shape, all rectangles. But yeah, yeah, so, if you like, we're asking for help. You say, hey, you know what, I enjoy this type of story. And they can say, oh, you like this kind of trope, you like this trope. Let me show you five books, three books, two books that have this trope, exactly. That's.
Mari:Another good way to use tropes is a way to kind of oh, I like this book, what is it about this book that I like, and how can I find others that I may also like? Because they have similar tropes and tropes do vary from genre to genre, because genre, of course, is another way you can kind of figure out what books you like. You know, maybe you're into in the mood for horror, maybe you want some sci-fi, maybe you want biography, maybe you want some sci-fi, maybe you want biography. You know, whatever genre you're in the mood for and you know, found, family, forced proximity, enemies to lovers. There's a ton of others, but those are some of the big ones you're going to kind of start noticing over and over again, used to describe books that tend to be popular in the Romanesie genre. I would say Do you guys agree?
Ashley:Yeah, yeah, agreed, agreed, agreed agree, yeah, yeah, agreed, agreed, yeah, no, you definitely crush that. I. I think of it as like a pattern, a building block. When I go shopping, am I looking for an a-line dress, a sheath, you know? Something short, something long, the human brain.
Mari:It's an identifier for me you know, that's how we learn that the berries that are red, that grow on this plant at this time of year, around this other plant, are the ones that we can eat, but the other ones will, like, kill us. You know, we, we, our brain is good at categorizing things and organizing things, and this is just a way to do that, a way to play into that, that aspect of our brain. So we're going to, in general, as the podcast goes on, talk about different tropes, but for today we're going to focus on the enemies to lovers.
Jonathan:trope I used to think that tropes were like, like I, when I before and before this podcast is, and this is a great thing. So, like kudos to you, I want to give you like a virtual high five because, like before, we started doing this podcast.
Mari:If you, would ask me what a trope was. Don't feed it, yeah.
Jonathan:So so, like this is yeah, no, and I don't think it's just you.
Mari:I think there's lots of people who maybe don't know or don't know that they don't know you know. Sometimes you don't know what you don't know, but tropes can be a good tool to help you figure out what you like and to help you better spend your time and money. If you're going to put time and money into reading or experiencing a story, hopefully you want it to be one that you enjoy, and so tropes are a way that you can find those stories that you enjoy. So the enemies to lovers trope, specifically, is what we're talking about today. It is basically when two or more characters start the story off as enemies and then, through a series of events or by clearing up misunderstandings or other plot points, become lovers.
Mari:It is arguably the most popular trope in the romantic genre. Like if you look at some of the most popular books in the romantic genre. Like if you look at some of those popular books in the romantic genre, the vast majority of them have, or are described as having, the enemies to lovers trope in it and, thinking about it, I was trying to figure out why do we think that's the case? Why do we think that's so popular in this genre?
Ashley:we love angst, love, angst. I don't know about the rest of you, but like something about somebody's neck, you want to ring only a little bit, like not completely, but like a little bit, and then to watch the evolution of someone change and evolve right right To to be worthy of the companion. Yeah, it's pretty, that's pretty heart melting to me.
Jonathan:So I think to me it comes down to passion. I think passion at its root is to suffer and I think suffering in the beginning of these stories is common. As we introduce conflict into a more modern way of looking at passion, which would be romantically, and I think the characters move into this story, move through the stories and begin to shift from that the passion, or the suffering portion of passion, into compassion and suffering with each other, which then evolves into love. Does that make sense To me? I think that's an easier transformational.
Ashley:So you're going to suffer, but you're going to like it.
Mari:You're going to suffer, so good, correct, yeah, I agree oh yes.
Mari:I think what I like about enemies to lovers is two things. I think I always like it when a change of perspective changes the story. So like maybe the events are the same, but when you look at it from a different perspective you feel something different about it, Like the other day I think it was the last episode we were talking about Wicked. Wicked doesn't change the events from the Wizard of Oz. Wicked is a prequel by another author and everything that happens in the Wizard of Oz still happens. But because we see a different perspective of it, we feel different about it after watching or reading the Wizard of Oz than if we hadn't seen Wicked.
Mari:And I think that enemies to lovers the way it's resolved, it's either one of two ways Either there was a misunderstanding and whatever caused these people to be enemies isn't actually so, or someone actually does change their viewpoint or their alliance. And I think that idea that we can all change, we can all be better, we can all do better and that even if we are at our worst, we're still worthy of love in the end, I think that's very we can, we're still worthy of love, you know, in the end. I think that's very appealing about that, that trope. I tend to like it as well, for the most part, kelly. How about you?
Mari:yeah, I agree yeah, and I think it it it leads to really interesting story writing, because you do have to establish why these people hate each other. You have to establish, you establish what it is about it that is pulling them apart, and yet there has to be that tension, and then you have to resolve the whole thing in a believable way when it's done well, of course. When it goes wrong, that's when you have cliches, you have predictable things happening and you have potentially toxic relationships. You have predictable things happening and you have potentially toxic relationships. So if you have someone abusing the other person and all of a sudden they're okay with it, that's not necessarily an enemy. So that may just be an abusive or toxic relationship. Yeah, yeah.
Jonathan:Stockholm syndrome. I thought about that too. I was like cause it could be like. When I was trying to think of like examples, like very like super broad and available examples that would be that everybody would know about and maybe not even realize that that's what it was the like. I initially started thinking like what's, what's the low hanging fruit? Is that an appropriate phrase? I don't even know where that stems from, but but I immediately was drawn to like all right, well, what are the stories that I knew as a kid and what do they? How would they relate? And the one that I crossed off almost immediately was like beauty and the beast, because I thought it's like more like imprisonment, like stockholm syndrome I wouldn't say you're off base.
Mari:I think it depends on how the story?
Mari:is told. You know, I think that could be considered an enemies to lover situation, but it could also be stockholm syndrome. I mean, ultimately, you know they're enemies because the beast imprisoned her father and she goes to save her. But you know, the beauty goes to save her father. But you know the beauty goes to save her father and you know it's the, you know, the person who has imprisoned her father wrongly. She gives herself in her father's place. So there's, they're definitely enemies, you know, then he learns, he changes and he becomes a better character and she gets a better viewpoint of what he was going through. And then you have enemies to lovers. Um, so.
Jonathan:So the tropes can be impacted by a reader's perspective and storytelling perspective. Right so it may. One reader could look at the same story and leave with the idea that this leans towards one trope, while another reader could have the same story and it could play out in their mind as a different trope.
Mari:It was basically people breaking down stories and you have different experts giving different opinions of it, especially when you have classics or books or stories where the authors are no longer alive or able to give their perspective of life or what was going on in the world when they wrote these books or stories or whatever, and try and figure out what they meant or what they were. You know what they were trying to tell. The enemies to lovers trope has been around a long time, probably as long as storytelling has been around. So early, early examples is Pyramus and Thisbe. So early, early examples is Pyramus and Thisbe, which is a Greek myth which was retold by Chaucer and it's also referenced in A Midsummer Night's Dream.
Mari:If you guys have ever seen that play or read it or watched the movie, it's the play within a play Two people in love whose families are opposing and one of them thinks the other one has died and kills himself, and then the other one does the same once they realize the first one has died, which sounds very much like Romeo and Juliet, which is another. Yeah, it's basically proto-Romeo and Juliet.
Mari:I was just thinking that's amazing Another absolutely enemies to lovers story, amongst other things. I mean, just because something is an enemies to lovers story doesn't mean that's the only thing it is Like. Romeo and Juliet is an Enemy to Lover story, but it also has comedy and tragedy and other things in it. But yeah, Romeo and Juliet definitely an early example of Enemy to Lovers, enemies to lovers.
Ashley:and then one of my favorites of early examples of enemies to lovers is pride and prejudice. Jane austen love it, every version of it. Yeah, I don't. I think the only one I haven't read is like prejudice and zombies or something like that. I'm not opposed, I just haven't gotten to it yet.
Mari:Yeah, but yeah, there's not about angst which I read pride and prejudice zombies.
Mari:It was fine, it was fun, you know for what it was, but yeah, just so. You have, of course, the original pride and prejudice. You have all the more modern retellings of it and versions of it, and then you have the pride and prejudice storylines that come into modern stories that aren't exactly retellings but are definitely influenced by it, like Bridget Jones' Diary is basically Pride and Prejudice as a modern day story, and you have them being, I guess, strangers at first but enemies pretty, pretty early on in the story, and then the entire plot is them coming to realize. Oh wait, maybe we're not enemies, maybe these feelings I have are actually something else, maybe the other person's not so bad.
Ashley:Yeah, I always think it's like the exploration of each other, right. That, like I feel like this is like a common theme that Kelly often complains about. Like if somebody would just fucking communicate, yeah, we would have so significantly less problems, right, and so that's I, that's, that's the bridge, right. That's how you cross from the negative into the positive in the storytelling. Is just getting that history, that context that you know that clue and the dots connect.
Ashley:And then you take a deep breath and you're like, well shit, maybe you know the wicked witch of the west really wasn't all that bad.
Jonathan:You know are you saying that communication is the catalyst for the lover, the transition to lovers, and a hundred percent yes it is the fastest catalyst okay, the fastest.
Ashley:I feel like that's key here, because there are other ways Shit will get figured out. It's just going to take a lot longer, gotcha.
Mari:And then there's more modern day popular examples. For example, just in general, not even romantic Star Wars, very popular across readers and non-readers alike. You know the newest star wars movies? You have raylo, you have ray and kylo ren, classic enemies to lovers wow, I even have on my on my list. I even have like kelly said no, I want to hear what kelly has to say about raylo.
Kelly:Yeah, no, nerve hurt nerve hurt the kylo ren ray thing, I don't know. I think that was. I mean, first of all, those star wars movies are a dumpster fire, second of all. Second of all, I think some of that is yeah don't hold back, kelly.
Kelly:There may have been some subtext in there, but I think a lot of that, like a lot of fandom, is fans deciding that these people must be together. That you know. That's where the relationship is. It's the fan fiction of no, no, no, no. I don't like that. Draco and Hermione didn't hook up, so I'm going to write a book, a bunch of books where Draco and Hermione hooked up no-transcript. Because that's the way it should be, and you can't convince me otherwise because I know better than the original author.
Ashley:Damn right.
Jonathan:Well it's a classic thing, it's called shipping.
Kelly:And it's just when, basically, the audience decides that whatever subtextual things there are in a relationship mean that the people are in love with each other or should be in love with each other like projecting their desires onto these other characters.
Mari:Yeah, I mean, you know, I very, very heavy formative years for me were the x-files years. So molder and scully were, were, were very, very fan fiction, heavy TV show for sure, like there was so much will they, won't they for years about those characters.
Kelly:And that's a classic plot device of serialized storytelling anyway. I mean, you see it in soap operas, you see it in long running sitcoms, tv series, book series, etc. You see it all the time. The authors and creators keep that tension there because it keeps the people watching series, etc. You see it all the time the authors and creators keep that tension there because it keeps the people watching, reading whatever yeah, I have among those lines, kelly, a good example of that I have is sam and diane from cheers I haven't seen cheers in forever, where everybody knows your name cinnamon toast crunch and cheers so
Mari:popular examples, specifically in romanicy, are some of the most popular books in romanicy, to be honest and we're not going to go into details on spoilers of these because some people may or may not have read all these but the ACOTAR series in general starts with humans and Fae basically being in opposition to each other and by the end of the series there's enemies to lovers. Let's just say that. Cruel Prince. Let me backtrack ACOTAR, court of Thorns of Rose, a Serenity Mass. Cruel Prince, holly Black, written by Holly Black black. You have kind of some, some similarities. You have humans and the fae and yeah, yeah and uh, it's definitely a different world than than the avatar world.
Mari:The fae are almost like horror movie fae. They're darker.
Jonathan:They're definitely alien and darker yeah it's, yes, it's a, it's a, it's a contemporary too, right, more modern yeah, yeah like, but you definitely have an enemy happening there.
Mari:and then fourth wing which, to be honest, for a bit in my head I was like fourth wing isn't really enemies to lovers, it was like their parents were enemies, not the main characters. But that is a thing Like if you have a family lineage or a family history of being opposed to this other family or this other race or country or whatever. It is enemy stories.
Mari:So definitely some of the most popular books in the romantic genre are rife with this trope. But what are some of your guys's either favorites that have enemy celebrity in it or that you wanted maybe to bring up as examples or talk about with enemy celebrities? The face that I've got a list as well, so I've got like five things to talk about okay, do you want to?
Jonathan:do you want to go back and forth and compare?
Ashley:yeah, I was gonna say like let's start with jonathan's list just because there's a lot that he hasn't read, that maybe the rest of us have well, some of these aren't like. I just went for stories yeah, yeah, no, I just like I don't want to touch like the cruel prince right, like you're just starting to get into that and I don't know that you'll nail the enemies to lover. Like that that's a ride, that book's a ride, that series is a ride.
Jonathan:So like, let's start with your list you're gonna feel like a, because I did have the cruel prince on my list no, no, that's cool, go for it you I want your list first, because I don't want to spoil anything for you okay, so I've got you know, but I'm gonna skip over the books that we've read on here that I think would be on the list. But like I try to like think of things that like my favorite enemies to lover story is Santa Claus 2,.
Jonathan:The Mrs Claus. So I won't spoil it because it is a delightful movie. But have you seen the?
Mari:first movie with Santa Claus. Is that the one with Tim Allen in it? Okay, I'm not 100% sure I've seen the first one. To be honest, I've seen bits and pieces but I'm not 100%. I know there's like a surly little elf in it that I've seen lots of great memes about.
Jonathan:Yeah, Bernard. The premise here is that fantasy being Santa Claus has to find a bride in order to stay as Santa Claus, and in his journey he has a limited time limit to find a Mrs Claus and he starts to de-Santify and his greatest attraction is the opposition. Okay.
Mari:I may have that on my list this year. To me that was a good enemies to lovers story. You'll have to remind me.
Jonathan:Oh, it's delightful.
Ashley:It's definitely a favorite of ours, yeah.
Jonathan:And then when you're done watching, that you let me know, because there's another element of it that I would like to talk about.
Mari:So what else you got on your list?
Jonathan:I got a good classic on here. This one I feel I don't know if anyone could ever dethrone this for me from being an anime celebrity, and it is with. It is another. This is a. This is classic, this is throwback, vintage, very, very classic film. I do remember that Overboard with Kurt Russell on yeah, that's just having that, those two different. There's some classism involved that drives that enemies and some revenge tactics that could be like. So that could also turn into like like you were saying there's some questionably ethical behavior For sure.
Ashley:A different time.
Jonathan:I also have one of ashley's favorites tangled right, is it? I was trying to think of his name. Is it finn rider or flynn rider?
Jonathan:flynn rider yeah, it's he gets attacked by her and a frying pan. She weaponized that frying pan she fucks him up yeah, and then later there are other things that happen. The the blue cat space movie, actually, what's that one called avatar, that one that's, and they were like fighting movies. No, no, no, I got books but I was trying to like. I I didn't want like, because I know there are like lots of books that we read together like, uh, what's that one wolf gone wild?
Mari:that's on my list?
Jonathan:yeah, that was one of the first ones that we read through, and that's you know. But I'll let the books go. I mean other things, like when you brought up the countries I thought about like spies, like us. When it's like that cold war and the tension is over the, the missile, and they, they, they go from these two sides, russians versus americans and all of a sudden they're in these like pup tents popping in with each other. You know. So, yeah, there's like, uh, they're. They started getting along real swell at the end of that movie, the 10 things I hate about you.
Mari:That's a classic that's a classic one. Yeah, I was waiting for you to bring that one up.
Jonathan:You've got mail well, that is one of my favorite. That's a heart warmer for me, and I think the last movie that I had on here was the proposal with ryan reynolds. If I just want to shout this out, if anyone knows ryan, what ryan reynolds? I have been on a quest to meet ryan. I feel like we could be friends, and so if anybody knows, knows Ryan, and you're listening.
Ashley:Holler at your boy.
Jonathan:Yeah, lunch is on me, you know what I mean. Not like real expensive lunch, but like medium to okay, lunch, you're not going to get food, you're not going to get sick, but we're also not going to be like paparazzi, where we're going.
Mari:Priorities.
Ashley:Yeah.
Jonathan:The rest I have are just books that we've read together, but I figured y'all would be more inclined to touch on those I think the classic.
Kelly:One of the classic examples would be in the comic book realm batman and catwoman oh, yes, so several and several times in several different storylines they hooked up, most notably I wasn't paying attention.
Kelly:I think the biggest is hinted at in some of the older comics where they did, like you know, alternate universe, batman stuff where he ended up with Catwoman, kind of stuff, but in the end there was a storyline series called Hush that had Batman and Catwoman finally hooking up and it had been one of those things that had been lingering, I guess, in the background subtext in the background for a long time, and so that was probably one of the, I think, probably something that most people, even if they don't read Romanesie, are probably familiar with, that type of storyline from Batman because you also saw it in the Christopher Nolan films.
Mari:And in the TV show Gotham when they were young, when they were kids. It starts to hint at it from there.
Kelly:And then of course it was also sort of in the Michael Keaton movie. So it's been several times that that's been a part of the Batman storylines.
Jonathan:Is Eartha Kitt the original Cougar?
Mari:I don't know if she's the original Cougar, I don't know. Yeah, it is Like in the TV show yeah, she was Catwoman actually.
Ashley:Oh like the OG Catwoman. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what like goes on. Oh, I was like Michelle Pfeiffer.
Jonathan:Catwoman.
Mari:Michelle Pfeiffer.
Jonathan:You can't go For sure. I love Catwoman. My favorite part about the Michelle was it the Michelle Pfeiffer one. When she got home and she had that neon sign and she like broke out the O and the T and it just said hell here.
Mari:That's an iconic scene. My Batman period full stop. All those done.
Jonathan:When I was a kid and it came down to like michael keaton playing batman. I didn't quite get the idea but like my, my parents, I could hear them be like oh yeah, michael keaton has batman. I've got to see this and I think for the most part he was pretty much like a like in comedy roles and and I didn't understand it but was just, I remember, like parroting them.
Kelly:The sentiment in Batman movies and TV shows has been you don't cast Batman, you cast Bruce Wayne. Yep, Because with special effects and costuming, et cetera, you can make just about any actor be Batman. So what you're really trying to do is cast Bruce Wayne.
Mari:Oh, that's true A hundred percent. Like I have said I'm sure I've said it on this podcast. I say it so often, Like if you want to know what goes on in my brain, it's the fact that Michael Keaton is both Beetlejuice and Batman. You want to know what's wrong with me? That's what's wrong with me forever.
Ashley:That has never connected for me before Wow.
Jonathan:Yeah, and recently too, Like both roles were reprised.
Mari:No, that's a good one, Kelly A plus.
Jonathan:Yeah, any other ones you wanted to bring up. Yeah, very good.
Kelly:No, I mean, I think that's Kelly coming in hot We've had several books that we've read that have the enemies to lovers trope. So I mean we've talked about some already. But I think you know, outside of the realm of romancy, some of the stuff we've already talked about, you know Beauty and the Beast, batman, et cetera. Those are all classics. I mean you see it everywhere. I mean it's a very popular trope in all forms of media.
Mari:Yeah, ash, what are some of yours?
Ashley:I'm going to hit you with a good one. Oh, hades and persephone. Oh, I feel like that's like one of your top ones. In every form, hades and persephone always start out as complete opposites. Sounds like a truck, I mean.
Mari:It does depend on the like, I don't know I was gonna say it depends on the version of the of the myth that you're going with, but on all versions they there's always some antagonism.
Ashley:Even if it doesn't go with, like the, the, the sexual assault route there's always an antagonism between them to begin with yeah, yep, yeah, even if it's just like that prejudice area right, jonathan's holding a bride for me, but I haven't read bride yet I, I think I'm surprised every time.
Mari:You guys know you did not read bride.
Jonathan:I'm surprised every time you didn't read Bride. You guys know that you did not read Bride on this podcast Every time we talk. I thought we read Bride on this podcast.
Ashley:No, but I was going to bring up Assistant to the Villain. Although I guess she's not super much his enemy, it's more like she's his enemy and he deals with her. What else was on my list? Twilight very easily starts out as enemies to lovers, like there's a whole hate love thing. Like I hate, I hate you so much but I can't stay away from you. That's probably, you know, one of the first big ones for me as an adolescent you should read.
Jonathan:You should read. Uh, so mari's probably read this one no, sugar coating it, yeah which we met. She was very delightful. That was a that's short ass.
Ashley:You should read that one too I mean, I know you mentioned akatar too, but I feel like, because I'm in the, in the mist of throne tog, yes, I just I couldn't figure out how to talk about it without spoiling it because it's in the middle of like yes, every no it's like every other book there's's no enemy to love her and I'm just engaged.
Ashley:I'm trying to think of what else. I mean, the Percy Jackson series definitely has, and you're going back to the Greek mythology, right? There's a lot of that everywhere you know, with Percy and Annabelle. But also I feel like all the great gods are a bit enemies to lovers to one extreme or the other. What did you just showed me?
Ashley:the time was that the, the time I got drunk the time I got drunk and saved a demon. Yeah, what was best about we? We were on that virtual panel that included her yesterday, marie, and at one point she was explaining how, how, how, they all got into writing um, but is it christy lemme? What's her first name?
Jonathan:uh kimberly.
Ashley:I wanted to say christy, shame on me. Kimberly lemming was explained and so her, her tone, just to set it for you, mario was like super, like deadpan, like just matter of fact, like yeah, I did this because of this, and she was explaining how she got into writing mostly as like a joke, because somebody told her that she couldn't, or that she shouldn't, write this type of book.
Ashley:Yes, and she's like so I just did it out of spite and I didn't think that a publisher was going to publish a single word and jokes on me I was just like yes, queen, yes, I love everything that she has. I think I've read everything she's written. I know you've read a few.
Mari:I've read all her mean mishaps and I've read all her, the alien one that came out. Yeah, it is, I was gonna say have you read it oh, what should I say about that? It is her tone, it is her style. It is also like a wild zany romp. It very much feels like a X-rated B-movie in space.
Ashley:Yeah, I love this so much. She was saying how I forget if it was her editor or her publisher, or just like her very close friend Somebody told her that she crossed a line and she's like which part of this line did I cross? Was it the acid trip? Was it what happened after the acid trip? Was it why on the acid trip, or something like that, and I was just dying in my we lost your microphone oh no yeah, no, no, it was, it was me.
Jonathan:Oh my, so we're on, we're, we're going through the phone and my sister texted something, oh no, and I was like, oh, let me just respond to her and I must so kimberly lenning said something about crossing the line I don't.
Ashley:Where did I cut off? Oh yeah, she was like, well, I'm gonna and again, I forget who she said informed her. She crossed the like like, hey, maybe you shouldn't do this. It wasn't like a wrist slap or anything like that, to be clear. And it was, and, but like whoever told her? She was like, okay, but where was the line? Was it? Was it the acid trip? Was it what happened after the like the whole series of events that happened after the acid trip? Or was it what led her up to the acid trip? Or are we just talking about the acid trip in general? Because it was like the scene where everybody was gonna die and she was like, well, if I'm gonna go out, like I'm gonna take all of you with me, kind of thing. So like she ingested poison or something and it was just a riot to listen to. I was actually just dying in my chair laughing and it made me want to read everything she's ever touched.
Mari:If, if that is your tone of humor and if you can be like, let nitpickyness go like it is, it is, it's comedy, like it is zany, and it is comedy and that is what she advertises it as and that is what it is and she's so good at it, yeah I love that yeah no, I love that for me it's.
Ashley:There's a lot, lot of Kimberly Lemming in my future.
Mari:Any other ones you want to bring up? I don't think so. I'm still in the throes of what I have. The first one that came up to me when I was thinking about it other than the big ones that are popular in the genre was Howl's Moving Castle. I felt had a very enemies to lovers kind of vibe. It's a book and it's also a movie, animated movie, studio Ghibli movie. I know Kelly and I have seen it. Have you guys seen it All, the studio Ghibli?
Ashley:stuff is very wholesome.
Mari:I have not, it's very celebration of, like the slice of life, day-to-day things, but there are plots and things that happen, obviously. But it's also very cozy. I don't know how to describe Ghibli other than I think you guys would enjoy it. But Howl's Moving Castle is a wizard with a bad rap and a female main character that gets kind of caught up with him and enemies deliver, happens. That's the best I can say without spoiling it and going into too much detail. It is a, I think, a middle school book like it's. It's very, it's a young, it's a children's book or or maybe middle school, early high school kind of book, but it it does a really interesting job of world building and how they learn to, I guess, live with each other, be friends kind of thing and then like to lovers, so to speak.
Mari:That was the first one that came to mind for me. Second one yeah, it's good, I'm going to be doing a Howl's Moving Castle costume at DragonCon, so very much have had it on the brain, so exciting. The second one that came up for me was princess bride in parts. So the whole thing is not an enemies to lover by any means, but I think that there's a chunk in the middle of it. Where there's a definite enemies to lover situation, that has to happen. Once again, it's hard to talk about this without spoiling it for anyone who hasn't seen this. I don't know how old princess bride is.
Mari:Movie and or book, yeah yeah, so I think it's the person who killed her love is, has kidnapped her and it goes on from there. It's not the overarching story, but it's definitely a chunk in the middle that I think carries like it's another example of the enemies to lovers how that can be done. The other one that came up to mind for me was Warm Bodies by Isaac Marion, which is a book and a movie, and they're both a little bit different. If you like one, I would recommend the other. They're both good.
Mari:They're just a little bit different, but it's basically zombie apocalypse has happened and it's a love story between a zombie and a human and, like, part of the story is told from the zombie's viewpoint and part of it's told from the human's viewpoint. It's a dual point of view. It's a love story, so it's not like I think ultimately it's a romance, even though it's set in this zombie apocalypse type setting. So it's not dark, it's not like a hopeless type of situation. It's a really sweet story. I've read it a few times and seen the movie a few times and they're both good.
Mari:I would recommend both the ending is, like, I think, the big difference between the two, but they're still. They're both good. I would recommend either. It may not be everybody's, but I was just like how, how are you going to do a zombie romance? And they, isaac marion did it. Yeah, yeah, very, very well, I think they figured this out kelly, have you seen that movie or read that book? I can't remember if we've watched it together. Which one warm bodies I thought we did we did. Okay, did you like it?
Mari:it was okay yeah, yeah, I thought it was sweet, the, the. I can't think of the actor's name now, who who played the main zombie in it, but it's the same actor who did renfield, who played the, the renfield character. Yes, I'm pretty sure it's him, nicholas holt.
Ashley:I love nicholas holt is so yeah, I can see it now. He just does such a good job of playing these weird characters.
Mari:Yes, yeah, yeah, very weird characters for sure, Wild eccentrics yeah.
Mari:It is Nicholas Holt. Okay, I had to like second guess. John Malkovich is in the movie too. So yes, I would recommend that one. That's a little Enemy Slivers coming up on the fall spooky season vibe. The other one that was very much in my head, that you mentioned Jonathan, was Wolf Gone Wild. I know it's one of the ones we've read but like I think I'll be rereading that again this year. There's something about specifically that first book and I think it's because in my head the wolf is the wolf from 10th Kingdom and I love that. In my brain that's who it is, that's who it will always be.
Jonathan:But yeah, you have the beginnings of a witch and werewolf societies against each other and they end up you know it's an hea romance at the end. So yeah, I think even the second one from that series don't hex and drive is it fits, that fits, that same model. So I've only gotten through I'm through book three in that one and then I started and then I finished the, the, the second series that she has but there's only one out so far in the second one right um okay, so I only feel correct correct I didn't.
Jonathan:I didn't get that the vibe from in that new series that was like enemies to lovers, but I did get the and I did get like don't hex and drive. Being that and I was, I was thinking like maybe initially witches get stitches. I said, was that the third one? What's the third one?
Ashley:I don't have them memorized, you have, it was probably it might have been hold on.
Jonathan:Uh, I'm doing the same thing.
Ashley:I'm staring at his bookshelf with all of his romantic books.
Jonathan:You guys, it's so cute yeah, I should start like what is book? Is book four grim?
Mari:and I I got the really pretty versions which are beautiful for the bookcase, but they I can't read them from here.
Jonathan:I can't read the spines from here oh yeah, it's got to be, it's got to be. Hold on, it's not book four, that's book six. Book four is always practice safe hacks. I'm interested in book four because it's book six. Book four is Always Practice Safe Hacks. I'm interested in book four because I'm sorry in book six, which is Grim and Barren, because they started to bring start to talk about, kind of bring it in.
Mari:I would say I've read all of the first. I've read all of this. Yeah, I've read all of them. Period, ash, have you read all of them? Okay, yeah, the first.
Ashley:I have.
Mari:Yeah, I read the first gen like the first six or seven, whatever, so Ash, would you say like I think every one of those has an enemies to lovers vibe of the original series, right?
Ashley:Yeah, most of them, I think. I think everyone, but the last one, because she was the just the last one. Oh, the Grim and Bad that's true, yeah, because she she knew she was intuitive or she could see the future kind of thing. So she already knew things that were going to happen and felt some type of way he might have felt enemies Very resistant. So yeah, I would say most of them.
Mari:It makes sense because the whole series is set in a world where the supernatural yeah like they're all suspicious of each other.
Jonathan:Most badly each other.
Ashley:Yeah, there's a lot of prejudice and Antagonism and everything.
Mari:Yeah, absolutely the last one I had was Slaying the Vampire Conqueror by Carissa Broadbent. It's a standalone in the Crowns of Niaxia series and there's several of those that could be enemies to lovers, but that one, I think, very specifically. I think it's a very good standalone. It's a full-fledged book. It's not a novella like the Six Scorched Roses one that we read on the podcast, but this one is basically an assassin who is.
Mari:She's from a cult or a religious sect or whatever, and they're raised to be assassins and her mission is to kill this vampire conqueror and so as part of that, she has to infiltrate his army and whatnot, go on his campaign and everything. And it's so interesting because she's basically a human. But part of this Her religious cult or whatever is that they cut out their eyes or they don't see, so she's blind, so everything she does is with all her other senses. And then you have the vampire with all the powers of the vampires in the Chris of Broadbent world. So they are absolutely enemies. Like he is here to exterminate her world, she is here to assassinate him and it turns into an enemy to lovers situation and I think it was really well done yeah, I would say I was gonna say I feel like most of carissa broadbent too is I agree enemies to lovers, at least the ones that I've read, the big ones yeah, I've been.
Jonathan:I I've been a struggle. I haven't finished that, that second book in the crowns of niaxia series, so I'm like halfway through that one too, I had to take a break. I lost interest in it. I should probably pick that, pick that one back up. I should do that.
Jonathan:Yeah, maybe I'll put that on my list um we love a list oh yeah, one series that I've been reading lately every couple months a new one pops out is the Hellbent series by Aurora Asher. It it's just it's. It's quite spicy and it's usually are. The first two that I've read so far are like it's all like demon based and in a contemporary setting and they it's usually like you don't belong. These two people don't belong together, but they're attracted to each other like it's like I don't know if there's massive conflict, but you know they're. In some of them there are. So but yeah it, it strikes me as that funny. I need to get that.
Mari:I need to read that before the fourth one comes out. Yeah, I haven't read any of these. Yet, would you say and this might be a stupid, stupid thing to assume, but would you say my funny demon valentine, it's a good one to read like valentine's, is it? Valentine's is part of the plot you know it's.
Jonathan:It might be part of the plot, but I don't think I don't. I don't think it was like straight up like a valent. It wasn wasn't a Valentine's Day book, it wasn't like the heavy theme. It's a great. As a matter of fact, I think you could read them all as standalones almost. She just released her third one. I mean, I think, and part of me thinks, that they're out in some capacity, but every couple of months a new one, a new version of it drops, and what do they call it? Paperback with some interesting edges. She's a Canadian author that's not currently traveling, so I like her stuff so much that I just reached out to her and was like, hey, let me get some book plates. I paid her for the book plates and she sent over enough book plates for this series as it comes out. Okay.
Mari:I'll have to add that to my list for sure. I tend to like to do I think I don't know how you guys do your tbr your to be read. I really like to do seasonal reading, like I love doing seasonal reading, so I like reading books set in in the winter time. In the winter time, if there's a book that's around a holiday, I like reading it around the holidays, like like Night Before Christmas by Sarah Rash. I read it December of last year. Go Luck Yourself, which is the sequel I read in March.
Mari:So I do love when there's like a timeliness to the time of year that correlates with the story, but it's also you gotta have evergreen stories that kind of you can read any time of year to filter into, for sure.
Jonathan:Yeah, you know, I read when, when Cupid falls, first thinking that it was going to be like very Valentine's day. Ish, it was not at all. In case you're like in that February frame of mind and you're like, well, I should read this one, it's not.
Mari:Yeah. But maybe you could read it from that perspective any other enemies to lovers stories, movies, tv shows, etc.
Ashley:That we want to talk about we cover everything on your list, husband I mean there's just so many.
Jonathan:I mean go look at the list, look at the list. I just look at the list and make sure I ticked all the boxes. I think we did tick all those boxes. Yeah, it's. As I look at my bookshelf, I think like a majority of it. It's such a common theme in this, in our genre, that it's hard to. I think if you went into a Romanesie book reader's home, you will get hurt. Don't't do this. People love their books. They're one of those non-damaging rubber sticky darts kind of thing. You'd probably land on something that either is enemies to lovers or leans in a direction, or can be conflated with, it'd be hard to.
Mari:Yeah, I agree, it's popular within the genre and so a lot, of, a lot of books have it in there, which means you have lots of examples of it. Sometimes it's done really well and sometimes not so much. I'd say in general it's a, although it can be a little overdone, because I feel like sometimes it feels like every romancy book is is advertised as enemies to lovers, and sometimes they're not. Sometimes it's like maybe they just don't like each other and then they are lovers, or maybe they're like academic rivals and then they're lovers. Sometimes the enemies to lovers. Mold is pushed on some books that it doesn't always fit, but overall I think I do like that tropepe and it's one that kind of like okay, let me read the back, if it, if it tells me it's that well, I think that also leans into the fantasy aspect of the romanticy.
Ashley:You know world is that, you know, even in just a fantasy based book setting or tv setting, it might not be enemies to lovers but there's definitely going to be enemies to friends or, you know, enemies to being on the same side.
Ashley:Like you, have to have some kind of connection, some kind of bridge, to be able to tell a story. I mean Lord of the Rings, which a book series that I've not read by any way, shape or form. So I'm probably mildly speaking out of turn here, but while it wasn't an overwhelming love story, there might have been love in it. It was not a love story but it was very much, you know, a group of different entities coming together for a common purpose, and so you know, for it to be romance-based makes it romance, you know, to make it romantic-y, makes it enemies to lovers instead of enemies into something common, you know, a common goal. So I think that's why it's probably a little bit more prevalent in this series, in this genre. But you know you, you have to have something bad to get to something before you have resolution, you gotta have conflict.
Jonathan:You're saying you have to introduce conflict.
Ashley:Yeah, yeah, absolutely otherwise what's the point?
Jonathan:right I, do have fluff, I do have one more you found one one more you got. This is one of my favorites Uh-oh Guardians of the Galaxy Star-Lord and Blue Cat, lady slash, green Lady. What's her name? Gamora? Yes, I thought she was green. They're definitely enemies to start with, she was the Blue Cat Lady, right? Oh, okay, she was also the.
Ashley:Blue Cat In Avatar.
Jonathan:Yeah, in Avatar she is the green green gal, and the thing that I like about the way this story shook out through volume three is that maybe there's an another opportunity, for I gotta be honest I like guardians of the galaxy, for like the vibe, the music, the it's in outer space kind of feeling, and the raccoon, his all his sass, all his attitude and I'm like wait wait, was there a love story there?
Mari:probably was, I just wasn't there for that like give me a wise ass, like you know, side character who gets shit done like you know side character who gets shit done? Yeah, have you? Have you seen volume three?
Kelly:I'm trying to ask this without spoiling the movie for anyone who didn't yes, you've seen it.
Mari:I know I've. Okay, thank you, I'm pretty sure I've seen it. Yeah, it's the one with, like, the rocket learned where he came from, kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, there were. There were. Yes, there were tears at the movie theater for that. Absolutely yeah, I can see why you wouldn't. Yeah, I think you would have a hard time with that. Just yeah, yeah, there were, there were. Yes, there were tears at the movie theater for that. Absolutely yeah, I can see why you wouldn't. Yeah, I think you would have a hard time with that.
Ashley:Just for context Hard See.
Jonathan:I like it and not that I like, I don't know.
Mari:I'm not inviting that, but I do enjoy the I enjoy that part story, like for for the storytelling quality not for the abusive.
Jonathan:You enjoy the yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's a good story for sure. The quality of the story. Also the music. That's like if I own six records, three of them are guardians of the galaxy, volume one, I think, if I had to say.
Mari:Probably the thing I love best about guardians of the galaxy are the side characters. To be honest, like there's there's, there's rocker raccoon, but there's also like groot and there's mary freaking poppins, like, yes, all the side characters 100, yeah, yeah, that's, it's a fun. It's a fun. Fun little series of movies, all right. Anything else we want to talk about or mention in enemies to lovers before Lovers, before I wrap it up, I think so too.
Ashley:I think we covered a lot of it.
Mari:All right. So thanks for listening to Of Swords and Soulmates. Before we go, make sure to check the show notes, rate, review and subscribe to us on your podcast app of choice. It helps others to find us and lets us know what you're enjoying. Follow us on Instagram, tiktok, youtube, facebook or Goodreads at ofswordsandsoulmates. Check us out on our website ofswordsandsoulmatescom. If you'd like to offer a suggestion for a future episode, book or topic, feel free to reach out to us on the DMs of any of those options or email us. If you want to read along with us as we prep for a new episode and get chapter-by-chapter interaction, join our Fable app book club by searching for the Of Swords and Soulmates book club. And, last but not least, we hope you'll join us in two weeks for our next episode, when we will be discussing the Enchanted Greenhouse, book two in the Spellshop series by Sarah Beth Durst. Bye, bye.
