Of Swords and Soulmates
Is this a kissing book? Of Swords and Soulmates features two couples (and sometimes more), with varying reading preferences and experiences, as they read, listen, and sometimes watch romantasy stories and discuss plot, fantasy elements, romance, spice, theories, and more. Join us for our non-expert opinions as we discuss, argue, rave, rant, and hopefully entertain. We may just help you find your next reading obsession or at least contribute to that TBR list!
Of Swords and Soulmates
"Dogma" - Faith, Loopholes, and Nostalgia
Our hosts dive deep into this 1999 cult classic, examining how it blends Catholic doctrine with elements of Greek mythology and Jewish mysticism to create a uniquely irreverent yet thoughtful commentary on faith. Is there hints of romance sprinkled into this film?
The film follows two fallen angels (Matt Damon and Ben Affleck) who discover a loophole that would allow them to return to heaven—with the unfortunate side effect of negating all existence. Standing in their way is a ragtag group including the last living descendant of Jesus (Linda Fiorentino), the 13th apostle (Chris Rock), a muse-turned-stripper (Salma Hayek), and everyone's favorite stoners, Jay and Silent Bob.
Twenty-plus years later, some aspects haven't aged well, but the film's willingness to question religious authority while respecting personal faith still resonates. Our hosts debate whether the movie holds up, with opinions ranging from "five stars, would watch again" to "not as impressive as I remembered." We also unpack the fascinating production stories, including how Kevin Smith famously joined Catholic protesters demonstrating against his own film and how the marketing team replaced Fiorentino's body with another actress's more curvaceous figure without her permission.
Whether you're revisiting this controversial classic or hearing about it for the first time, our conversation highlights why "Dogma" remains a significant cultural touchstone that's worth tracking down on DVD—at least until Smith's recently reclaimed rights finally bring it back to screens everywhere. Have you seen Dogma? Let us know what you thought about this religious satire that dared to ask the important questions, like whether God really is a skee-ball enthusiast.
Links from the News Segment and Show:
- Acrylipics is doing a special edition version of Abigail Owen’s Games Gods Play
- Frankenstein is getting the Minalima treatment (Oct 28)
- Leigh Bardugo book teased
- Unnamed Ninth House book 3 will likely publish in Fall 2026
- Amazon Link
- Prologue snippet released for SenLinYu novel - Alchemised
- Controversy over AI use by romantasy author
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Views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the participants. The hosts make no claim to be literary experts and their opinions are exactly that opinions. All creative works discussed or reviewed are the intellectual property of the creators of said stories and is being used under the Fair Use Doctrine.
Mari:Hello and welcome to Of Swords and Soulmates, a podcast where we read, watch and discuss romanticist stories. I'm one of your hosts, mari, and with me I have Kelly.
Kelly:Hey everyone, it's Kelly. We also have Ashley.
Ashley:Hey guys, it's Ashley. We also have Jonathan.
Jonathan:Hey, it's JP. What's good everyone.
Ashley:That was mellow for you, I tried.
Mari:Are you tired?
Jonathan:Potentially.
Mari:Well, today we're going to be discussing the 1999 film Dogma, but first, as always, some news. We've got a few things today. First off is that Aquilapix is doing a special edition version of Abigail Owen's Games Gods Play, and it's really pretty.
Ashley:It's so pretty.
Mari:It really is. It's got three. It's a three-sided digitally printed pages. It's got gold-foiled dust jackets. It's all done by the Acrylipix artist Molly. Yeah, the pictures look really pretty.
Ashley:I'm so happy for her. I know she works really hard.
Jonathan:Oh, abigail, yes, she's sparkly.
Mari:She's sparkly and she's hard working for sure.
Jonathan:I'm going to make her one of those bookmark. Don't tell her, she can know I'm going to make like one of those bookmark don't tell her. Oh well, she can know I'll make her one of those bookmark um purses, like you know kind of thing, and I had ordered like this, very like gold sparkly strap, shoulder strap for her oh, that's cute she likes. She likes sparkly things. She always wears those like shiny sequin tops and stuff to events.
Mari:Is she going to be at Romana Seacon this year? I haven't looked through all the authors?
Ashley:I think yes, oh good.
Mari:That'd be good to see her again. Okay, the other news bit I have is that Frankenstein is getting the MinaLima treatment, and I'm so excited for this. I've been wanting a new special edition Frankenstein because the one I have is, I don't know, like 15 years old and I've read it a lot and it's just falling apart. So MinaLima is a design duo. It's Mirafona Mina and Eduardo Lima. They're a design team and they did all the graphic stuff. They were famous for doing all the graphic stuff for the Harry Potter movies, but they do really, really good versions of like classic books. So they've done like Alice in Wonderland and Wizard of Oz, sleeping Beauty, peter Pan, and they take them and they're like I don't know, they're like some of the fanciest pop-up books I've seen. So they're like beautifully illustrated, but then they also have like pop-up elements and like things where you twist or you turn Very interactive. Yeah. So I'm really excited to see what they're going to do for Frankenstein. So it's going to come out October 28th of this year. They described it as having illustrations, seven interactive paper engineered elements and enthralling design details on every page.
Mari:If you pre-order it from their website, which is in the UK, so you're going to pay more. But if you pre-order it from there, you get a signed version by them. But if you pre-order it from there, you get a signed version by them and they are including a printed image. That's only going to be available if you pre-order the book. It's like Frankenstein's Laboratory or whatever. Yeah, I may have pre-ordered it today. May have.
Jonathan:I did, spoiler alert I did. What does it add to it in terms of getting it to the US? What does it add to the price? Just curious. I think the whole thing when you convert everything over and when you add, I think it was like around $50.
Mari:That's not bad, yeah, that's not bad, especially for what you get. Yeah, I think the price on there is like 30 something pounds, um, so if you're in the uk, obviously it's cheaper. I know that mina lima also has several like interactive stores you can go in. There's one in scotland, one in london, I want to say. There's one in new york I'm not 100 sure um, one somewhere else, I want to say tokyo, but I may be wrong. But they do have, like these stores or like museums, slash stores, slash art gallery, and they. I mean, if you're going to one of those or if you live close to one of those, you could probably get it without the shipping costs. I don't know if they would include that image, though, the pre-order image.
Ashley:I didn't know they had like other stores.
Mari:Yes, so the London one was the first one and then Scotland came not too long after. I want to say I heard something about New York, but I may be imagining that. Look on their website. I don't want to steer anybody wrong, but I thought they had two other ones outside of, like the UK. But yeah, they do really beautiful work. They also have like posters and prints you can buy. So if anyone is decorating a nursery, they do a gaggle of geese or a herd of horses, they do this whole series of things that it's a group of things and they have these really pretty illustrations for it. It's really cute for a kid's room or nursery, I think.
Ashley:They really are so talented. Yeah, it's really some of the most beautiful artwork that I've ever seen.
Mari:Yeah, yeah, if you ever get the chance like if they're ever at any event that you go to, if you ever get the chance to meet them. They're also very, very nice and very sweet. I met them. They were at City Walk not too long ago, weren't they? Yeah, they ran well, not randomly, I guess they do come to events and if you follow them it'll say when, but it's like it's also I don't know, it seems like most of the time they come it's not part of any big event, it's not like part. I'm going to go to Orlando to see them specifically, you know if I happen to be there, yeah, yeah, but they do really pretty, really, really good work.
Mari:The last two little bits I have is I'm on Leah Bardugo's newsletter and she released a little book teaser thing that the third book in the Ninth House series which the first one was Ninth House, the second one was Hellbent. So the third one in that series is coming out in fall of next year. It doesn't have a title yet, it doesn't have an exact release date yet, but it is coming out, which is it's a good series. It's kind of a dark academia. I would describe it as it's got a little bit of a little bit of magic vibes, but it's mainly dark academia. Has anybody else read those other than me? I tried.
Ashley:I think I tried the audiobook and I just couldn't. I don't think I got very far, but I want to. It's on my tBR it's definitely.
Mari:I feel like it's definitely very dark academia like I. You know some are good day dark academia kind of also has like fantasy vibes or steampunk or crossover. This it felt very much like squarely in the dark academia genre and the main character is not my favorite and I think that can make it a little difficult too. Um, but I ended up liking the story overall, the direction she took it. Uh, so I'm curious to see where the third, where the third one's going. I have of news is from Sen Lin Yu's email newsletter thing. They released a prologue teaser snippet from yes, from Alchemize, like it just came out today. So it's on the little snippets on Instagram as well, but the bigger part of the prologue is on the newsletter. So I'm going to read the snippet that they put on Instagram. Helena wondered sometimes if she still had eyes. The darkness surrounding her never ended. She thought at first, if she waited long enough, some glimmer of light would appear or someone would come. Yet no matter how long she waited, there was nothing.
Ashley:Just endless dark. I immediately teared up. Right now I know, I know exactly where that is.
Mari:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll send you the full prologue thing she put on the newsletter. Yeah, so that was exciting, it's getting more and more official.
Ashley:Yeah yeah, that's rough. I feel rough already. Yeah yeah, so very much looking forward to being destroyed again.
Mari:I feel rough already. Yeah, yeah, so very much looking forward to being destroyed again, I guess, by that book.
Ashley:Isn't that such an interesting feeling. Like you're, just you know that this book is going to destroy you and you can't wait for it still, yeah.
Mari:Yeah, I'm just really curious how she's going to rework it. Like I really want to see, see how she she changes it, you know, how she makes it her own.
Ashley:That's a tall order, because it is a beloved series.
Mari:Anybody else have any news tidbits.
Jonathan:So just the news just kind of.
Kelly:The story, I guess, has been bubbling for a day or two, but just now published on a news site that the author, Lena MacDonald, who wrote Dark Hollow Academy apparently her new book, Dark Hollow Academy, year two that just dropped, had a AI prompt in it that would indicate that she was using ai to edit her book. And the ai prompt says passage rewritten to align more with jay bree style for more tension, gritty undertones and raw emotional subtext beneath the supernatural elements oh no. So that's exactly the prompt you would get if you put a oh no, that's exactly the prompt you would get if you put a bunch of text into an AI, into OpenAI, and said rewrite this to match it to whatever author style or rewrite this to match it with whatever. The book has already been updated on Kindle since it was published and that passage removed. But there's already a lot of backlash, as you can imagine.
Ashley:How crazy.
Kelly:Yeah, so McDonald who publishes under the name I guess Sienna Patterson Interesting.
Jonathan:It's getting like Kelly coming with the tea today, hand in the cookie jar.
Kelly:So this this is becoming a problem in academia, which is where I've been kind of seeing it. Is that, which is where I've been kind of seeing it? Is that some of the stuff I do?
Jonathan:tangentially. That's related to academia. We've all had to sign agreements saying that we will not use AI to do any of this work for creating test banks. What does it get you Like? Are you like? Does it get you like? Is this people trying to get the grades up? Is that what's happening?
Kelly:I mean, I don't know why people are using it in academia, I guess to help them write papers.
Mari:Yeah.
Kelly:I mean that would be the obvious thing. I mean there's been people, you there's been, you know, no shortage of people willing to take money to write papers for people since you know, since academia existed.
Jonathan:But AI now makes it so much easier, and so it's becoming a pretty big problem in academia I heard somewhere that, like, teachers are just like now, they're just like yeah, I mean like it doesn't make sense to to fight it, so instead we'll just use it, but in a different hey, come write this paper and now let's let's edit it together and make that the test, rather than making the actual writing of the paper the test and just be like we figure you all probably used AI at some point, but now let's go back and correct AI, because AI is not perfect.
Kelly:Well, the problem is is an author passing an ai piece of work off as their own?
Jonathan:right yeah it it. This goes from like artistry into it. It twists the use of it as a tool into the artistic representation does that? Make. Does that make sense, like it's?
Mari:yeah, yeah, you're putting it out there as if you're putting the same level of creative spark into it as someone yeah, creative spark and effort.
Jonathan:As someone who you know birthed a novel wholesale yeah, no no, exactly, exactly, it's um, like I find it difficult to believe that most authors, especially those who are balling on a budget, like doing e-publish stuff that they're not using tools to edit.
Kelly:Well, there's a difference between. There's a difference between using grammarly to edit your grammar and spelling checks and a difference between using AI to say, eh, I don't like this, Rewrite this and make it better. But put it in the style of Dr Seuss or I don't know where, I don't know what to do next, what should these characters do next? Or you know whatever. I think that's where the problem is.
Mari:Yeah, yeah, well, and then add to that the problem that a lot of these AIs have been trained by using artists' work without their permission, right, so it's like theft upon theft.
Jonathan:Well, that's a gray area. I don't think you'd call it. I think we call it theft because we think of it as like a machine, but we're all inspired by other people.
Kelly:There's a difference between being inspired and using a machine that compresses all of everything that everyone's ever written and distilled it down. It's the copy and paste for me, yeah.
Ashley:Like, do better at that point, just you know, spin it, be creative. Like, do better at that point, just you know, spin it, be creative. You know I get there's a burnout point in the process and that can be stressful.
Jonathan:But to be like word for word for something like that is pretty wild yeah if you want to get even with um ai, the way to do that is to be polite to AI. It costs them. I forget what the cost is, but the more people thank AI and are just like, very polite and cordial, the more they tell you to just be short and clipped with AI because it costs them so much money for AI to say thank you, to reply to your kindness.
Kelly:So if you want to get them where it hurts in the pocketbook- there's a reason there's no good science fiction book where ai is a positive exactly I mean we've, we've all been using ai for decades now.
Ashley:We just didn't know it kelly coming in hot with the tea.
Kelly:Good job, kelly the thing I wonder about is, if this one person is caught, how many authors are using it and haven't gotten caught?
Mari:We've talked about before, how many authors are having mental health breakdowns and things trying to keep up with what they think is the industry standard, when really it's people not actually writing books, it's AI. You know what I mean? Yeah, you have people that can churn out a bunch of books a year and then you have people who are like stressing themselves out to try and compete with unrealistic industry standard and I put that in in air quotes, you know I think I heard somewhere that they have to write like in order to be a successful and profitable author, you have to have like something like 40 books in in print somewhere in order to live off of that stuff.
Jonathan:Can you like the stress of getting one out? Right, I can't imagine writing one it's hard enough to read one for me, right? So it's like dang you know, like and and how do you?
Jonathan:I, I did hear that a lot, of a lot of times, like we were at some of those panels, I think last year, when authors were saying things like they stop reading while they're writing so that they're not accidentally influenced, right, I can't imagine doing that because, like there are times where, like I'll have an idea for something and I'll be like this is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and then google it and you're like it's yeah, that's been out for I mean there's always going to be.
Kelly:There's always going to be creative yahtzee. I mean that's just a part of the creative process where you think of something that's an original thought for you, but somebody's already done it or done something similar to it and just because somebody's done something similar doesn't mean that what you're doing isn't worthwhile.
Mari:Like, how many versions of Pride and Prejudice and retellings of Pride and Prejudice exist in the world right now? Like, I don't know, I probably have 20 in our house. You know, like there's just some things, are some ideas, and some things are worth repeating for the learning process and for putting your own spin on it, and I think that's something that carries over from different kinds of creative pursuits, like visual artists. You know, back in the day, painting, you would have the people who were learning People. I didn't go to art school, but my understanding is a lot of times when you're learning in art school, you do copy the masters. You learn how to try and recreate the different masters in the different works and also like, oh, try and draw this in Picasso style, try and draw this in Van Gogh style to stretch your creative muscles. So there's something to be said for using what exists before you to create something new, but I think that human element is still necessary to make it good.
Jonathan:What was that movie with Robin Williams where he was like a robot and then progressively as the movie went on?
Ashley:Bicentennial man.
Jonathan:Antonio Manz, that's it. He became more and more until he actually was a human. It's just. It's interesting what a world we live in, that if you would have asked me when I was a kid, like what, I would have been like yeah, we're gonna have flying cars, not, we're gonna have. We're gonna be talking about the danger of slipping back into the dark ages, but also have this very powerful, everything I own is connected to the internet kind of situation that we're living in. It's just wild.
Mari:Agreed, agreed. Any other news? I?
Jonathan:walk around with a supercomputer in my pocket all day.
Ashley:Yeah, did you guys see that the app updated? For what is it called guidebook? Guidebook, yeah, for yeah for menace econ.
Mari:Yes, so you can download. You download the guide book app and you can download and see, like, the schedule of things, although I I think it'll be like last year where they're still kind of finalizing it and we'll be tweaking things because it won't be till I I believe August 1st is when you can actually sign up for things Like sign up for panels and tickets and whatnot. So I believe there'll be changes up until then. But, yeah, you can look and see who the ticketed authors are, more or less the panels and the map of the hotel, like where things are going to be laid out, and you can filter out the things that are available for you to do based off the ticket level that you bought, and you can like contact people and friend them. Yeah, it's a good little app. So if anyone's thinking of going, I would absolutely download that app and get familiar with it before August 1st. If you're wanting to try and get into anything, yeah for sure.
Mari:I don't think as as this year, but I know last year there was one or two panels that I had wanted to go into that were full on the app and yet when the panel was like had started or right before starting. They last minute let people in because there was enough space. So people who had maybe gotten tickets for it or whatever ended up not going. So there were empty spots available for it. So just because you may not get into a panel, this is different from a ticketed author signing situation. But if there's a panel you want to go to and you're not able to get into it and it's one you really, really want to go to, I would still go and like stand in line and after they let everybody in, if they're still letting other people in, you might be able to get in. It's not guaranteed, you know. Good pro tip. Any other news tidbits?
Ashley:nope, that's all I got all right.
Mari:So we watched dogma as our story that we're going to be talking about um this episode, I'm going to read the synopsis and then we can get into our talk about it. So this is from imdb. Two fallen angels who were ejected from paradise find themselves banned in Wisconsin. They're now headed for New Jersey where they find a loophole that can get them back into heaven. The only catch is that it will destroy humanity. A group bands together to stop them. That's the synopsis. That's the imdb synopsis. What I mean? Technically it's true.
Ashley:Yeah no, I just there's so much, there's so much more to that story.
Mari:Yeah, yeah, I couldn't find any sort of like official synopsis, official blurbs. There's like a long plot synopsis you could find like the whole breakdown of the movie, but I'm no, nobody needs to be reading all that.
Ashley:That's so interesting yeah.
Mari:Yeah, I don't think I had watched this movie since like probably when it first came out or very close to when it first came out since the nineties. For sure it's the last time I watched this movie, but I watched it again last night for the first time in 20 something years last night.
Jonathan:Uh, for the first time in 20 something years we've definitely watched it in the past decade, but it had been long enough that we were like we. First thing we did was look for it to stream, and then we were not available anywhere yeah, so then.
Jonathan:But then we were like we, we knew we owned it. So I had to like find the d DVD folder that I had. Like we was stuffed in a corner somewhere. And I was like, oh, I got it, yeah, I have it right here. And then I walked out to the living room and I was like, oh, where am I going to put it in? So I was like, do we have to go buy a DVD player? We might as well just stream this thing anyway. And then I lifted up with one of the coffee tables that lifts up, and inside there is where I keep the projector. And um, and underneath that, apparently what I used previously to hold the projector at the correct height was the DVD player. So so I was like, let me get my projector riser box out. And I got that out and I was like, oh, I got to plug this in, plug it in. I was like, got that out and I was like, oh, I gotta plug this in, plug it in.
Jonathan:I was like I, I would the next fear was do I have a remote to operate this tvd player? Thankfully, I did such a good job that everything was where it was supposed to be and we were able to watch it nice.
Mari:Now do you guys know why it's not streaming anywhere?
Ashley:fucking harvey weinstein, yep really. You don't know this story. I don't know this.
Jonathan:No, tell me this story. Wow, I've impressed.
Ashley:Kelly.
Kelly:No, no, go ahead, mari.
Mari:Me Okay, so I didn't research it fully, for I figured somebody else would know, but here's what I know about it. So Weinstein owns the rights to it. So Weinstein owns the rights to it. And Weinstein approached Kevin Smith, the director and writer, and soundbob approached him to do a sequel, and I think this is my understanding and they were like no, and then that's apparently right around the time where everything was coming out about Weinstein and I don't know if he was actually approaching for this. I don't know if there's something beef between Smith and Weinstein, but Kevin Smith says something about like he thought that this was about the time that Weinstein was trying to figure out who was ratting on him.
Mari:Basically, weinstein pulled it for everybody that you know they're not. You're never gonna make a sequel, you're never gonna get any money from it. It's never, never going to be streaming anywhere. Yeah, weinstein basically had the rights to this, has had. I don't know what the legal situation is now, but they had the rights to it, which is why it's not streaming anywhere. So if you don't have the physical media for this, you're not watching it. Wow.
Jonathan:Wow, I was surprised.
Mari:And added layer to that, the Weinstein thing. We're not going to get into here, but it's horrendous sexual assaults, abuse of power situations, the I forget her name the main actress who played Bethany in this movie. Her name is.
Ashley:Linda.
Mari:Fiorentino. Yeah, fiorentino, like at the time she was basically not blacklisted but she was like talked about as being very difficult to work with, listed, but she was like talked about as being very difficult to work with um, which is apparently a an mo that weinstein did whenever someone didn't go along with what he wanted them to do. Um, he would like um defame them for being a difficult, usually actress to be with if they wouldn't do whatever he wanted them to do sexually. And so, yeah, apparently her career suffered for that, to the point where, after Kevin Smith had his heart attack and Fiorentino, like I don't know, she sent him flowers or something I don't know she reached out to him.
Mari:He like did some sort of a public apology for the way she was treated during that time, because so she was treated that way and the movie posters, the official movie posters for Dogma or some of the official movie stuff that got released for Dogma, the pictures and all didn't use her body, it used a bustier version, another actress with bigger boobs, and they put her head on it. Yeah, and she was like that is not cool. I did not get permission for that, right, this was the 90s, nobody cared and she was just labeled as this difficult actress and it affected the rest of her career for it. Right, this was the 90s, nobody cared. And she was just labeled as this difficult actress and it affected the rest of her career for it. Wow yeah.
Kelly:So the good news is that on his podcast a few months ago, Kevin Smith said that he has got Dogma out from underneath Harvey Weinstein's production company.
Mari:Good.
Kelly:So it is out of that company now and it's in a new company and now he's trying to figure out, go through the legal hoops to be able to finally release it.
Ashley:So so that must be why he's able to release it in the theaters right for the anniversary right um, so I heard basically the same interview, marie, that I think you probably saw if I didn't already send it to you guys. I had seen basically the same thing that you know Kevin would reach out to Harvey Weinstein's people every you know five, 10 years and be like, hey, there's this anniversary, we should do something. And he'd never hear back. And then, right before the big news story dropped outing Weinstein, he did call Kevin and like, pretend, allegedly pretended that he wanted to do an anniversary thing for dogma, and the feedback that Kevin got after that was that Harvey was like feeling him out to see if he was part of the like quote leak is what I remember, um, and that you know, weinstein was basically like yanking his chain. He was never gonna, you know, do anything for dogma, he was just trying to save his own ass well, that sucks yeah, it's a wild story.
Mari:Yeah, another layer that I thought was interesting that I learned not 100 related to that, but when I was looking the stuff up about Linda Ferentino, apparently she wasn't the first pick of who Kevin Smith wanted for this. They wanted Gillian Anderson Scully from the X-Files to play that role.
Ashley:I can see that. I can see that for them.
Mari:I love her so much I literally have her tattooed on my bicep.
Jonathan:I was going to say I'm pretty sure I thought I was gonna say I thought there was maybe some artwork there yes, I met her.
Mari:She's amazing. I love her.
Ashley:Yeah, she's also like teeny, teeny tiny sure, well, and I can see like they're spoofing things right yes, I can see how and why they would want her for that role. That fits.
Mari:Right, especi ally, you think, the 90s, when X-Files was still hot and that the character Scully was this you know lapsed faithful person, occasionally lapsed, occasiona lly faithful, and yet a skeptic when it came to the Mulder stuff. Like it would have been a really interesting crossover, but apparently Jillian hated the script so she said no. Thank you, jillian. Well, no. All that being said, what did we think of of the movie?
Ashley:overall rating Do you want me to go first? This was a five for me and I don't have any logic behind it. I love this movie. I used to know it, line by line, probably. I mean watching it. This is the first time we've watched it as an adult, right, because 10 years ago I was not an adult. But I mean in the level. At the level, just because genetically the united states says I was adult does not mean mentally or emotionally I was um, yeah, the. The level at which I had this movie memorized as a teenager is probably unhealthy. I mean, in 1999, I would have been 12. So 13, 14, 15, I had this movie memorized. My parents should have been watching a lot closer. All of that to say it was just it was. It was a hysterical movie to me and I think it gives you all. I think you laugh. I think there are probably a handful of things that didn't age well, but that tracks for the 90s, right, and I was thoroughly entertained re-watching this movie. I would watch it again.
Jonathan:I love this movie. You love this movie, would watch it again.
Ashley:I love this movie you love this movie.
Jonathan:Yeah, I like that. It challenges. It challenges the, the status quo. What was my childhood? So the moment I got to sit down and watch this movie, um, I was like, yeah, I've been telling y'all about, like, how dumb this stuff is it validated you yeah, it validated me. I thought it was great, I thought it was like it showed, like you know what was the card. It was a cardinal, cardinal glick or whatever.
Jonathan:Uh, he was uh george yeah, it was like. Yeah, that was like monsignor you know I won't drop his name, but he was just like, yeah, like that's the. It's exactly the way I envision these people being, like maybe they they worship, but they were like let's make a buck. So I it was validating when that film came out for me and I appreciate it. Five stars.
Mari:What do you think, Kelly?
Kelly:This is probably Kevin Smith's best movie. Think, overall, this movie had everything going right for it. It had good comedic timing, it had a good script, it had a funny concept. Everything seemed to work for it. So I would really have to say that this is like a four and a half.
Kelly:It's probably one of the best movies to sort of poke fun at Catholicism without going over the line of being like insulting. I think the only movie that maybe does it slightly better would be the 80s movie Heaven Help Us, which is a little bit more about growing up in like a Catholic school. So it's a little bit pokes, a little bit more fun of Catholicism from that direction. And Heaven Help Us, of course, is a classic because it had a. It was like the film debut of a lot of young actors who would become more prominent later. So you had, like young Andrew McCarthy, young Kevin Dillon, young Patrick Dempsey, you had an appearance by Wallace Shawn, you had Donald Sutherland as a guest appearance. So it was a lot of big names, a lot of actors who would go on to become big names.
Mari:Nice, okay For me. I didn't think it was as good as I remembered it being. I don't know if I built it up in my head because I remember liking it. I remember thinking it had some really interesting, cool, thought-provoking things. I also remember, um, it being this big like act of rebellion to watch it, because it was I. I was detransitioning out of the Catholic church stuff kind of around that time and like it was this whole like oh, don't watch this, you know it's a bad movie, or whatever. So then when I rewatched it last night I was like for me it wasn't as funny as I remembered, it wasn't as edgy as I remembered. I wasn't impressed with the acting, like even people I knew are good actors, like Alan Rickman, love, love, love. And I was just like even Alan Rickman's performance was not doing it for me.
Mari:So I don't know if it's because I built it up in my head, I don't know. For me it was a three. It was just not as good as I remembered it being.
Ashley:It was fine I would like to state for the record I didn't say that this was amazing, acting right there was no oscar performances here, no, no, no, I mean alan rickman was doing his best he was, he really did. He put us all in there and he didn't have to, and everybody should appreciate that all for the more.
Mari:Did you guys see the thing? That was it Jay. The guy who plays Jay was like put all this hardcore effort into memorizing lines and everything because he didn't want to disappoint Alan Rickman in this movie.
Kelly:He did not, yeah he was like hardcore.
Mari:He memorized other people's lines, everything. He didn't want to disappoint Alan Rickman Stop it.
Ashley:That makes me love him more.
Mari:Yeah.
Ashley:Yeah.
Kelly:The thing, about this movie. I mean there's a lot of things about this movie that don't really age well, just because there's a lot of jokes that are in the moment of the 90s. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of things that wouldn't work now. You know, everybody has a cell phone now. That wasn't the case when this movie was made. You know, things like that. Um, there was some self-referential, self-referential culture humor, like um, matt damon's, you know, singing the martin theme song.
Kelly:Yeah, like if you are not someone who grew up in this time period or watched that show or knew about that show, that would be completely lost on you.
Jonathan:Yeah, do you remember when Dogma was released, the story when Kevin Smith protested against his own movie?
Kelly:Yeah, that was funny.
Jonathan:And it was cute.
Ashley:Yeah, isn't that how Jay and silent bob came to be like strike back?
Kelly:yeah, that was kind of. That was kind of the plot line for that movie this entire plot line for that movie when he but I didn't know it was an actual protest right, oh he was. Yeah, he was, I guess was debuting and like yeah, there was a group of protesters catholic protesters and so he went and made his own sign and joined them. I think he even got interviewed. Yeah, I think that's what I heard.
Jonathan:They were like we think we know this guy, let's interview him I love this.
Ashley:If I knew about it, I forgot it.
Jonathan:That makes it better.
Ashley:Because then it created Jay and Silent Bob, strike Back, or Jay and Bob. Yeah, that's what. It is right, strike Back, that's the first one.
Kelly:But there's just so many things about this movie that are just hilarious concepts the Buddy Christ that just that very concept itself is hilarious.
Mari:Yeah, rebranding yeah.
Jonathan:Yeah, the Catholicism, wow yeah.
Kelly:I mean honestly, is a catholicism, wow?
Jonathan:yeah, I mean honestly, I'm surprised the catholic church hasn't tried that yeah I mean they were probably like that bastard stole it's a good, it is a solid idea try.
Ashley:We don't want to get sued by kevin smith. And then they tried to off him right by giving him all the carbs and the fatty foods, and he's like fucking sticking around good times.
Jonathan:Good time. No, I thought I thought it was. Yeah, I did think that was a great concept. As I was watching I was like you know, makes a whole bunch of sense, you know rebranding yeah, and they don't have a lot. They don't have a lot of cool brand work going for them. They got the lowercase letter t and uh, that guy the one guy yeah, they got that, they got all those holidays, so that's going good. So, yeah, they could use a rebrand.
Mari:They did rebrand all those holidays from other cultures, didn't they? They're good at rebranding.
Jonathan:I mean this could be a good move for Pope Bob. He's young, fresh right out of the Chi-town. Could he can make it happen for him?
Jonathan:um, we got hopes for you, bob yeah, pope leo, if you're out there listening, we're all for. I think kelly's for the buddy christ I would probably I'm not gonna lie, I'm not real deep in going to church myself. But uh, pope leo, if you hear this and you want to get me to show up at church, I challenge you to come up with like Buddy Christ equivalent and re-invoke the Catholicism wild campaign and I'll show up.
Ashley:For funsies I'd show up For the t-shirt.
Kelly:There are a lot of interesting things in this movie too that are still true, I mean, essentially it's. It's kind of hilarious in a way that one part of the movie was the, the company mooby that was had all the characters in the restaurants and was essentially a stand-in for disney right, yeah yeah, and this movie was owned essentially by disney yeah that was.
Jonathan:It was. That was a pretty great flex and like uh, that's, I think that's the hat that um silent bob is wearing movie movie the cow.
Kelly:Yeah, and it's. And it's an interesting you know point that you know Kevin Smith made with humor, is that you know, idolatry through consumerism.
Mari:Yeah, also, the concept that you, you can. You can like a thing and you still can criticize it and make fun of it, and you ought to be able to, because I believe I thought I read that he was Christian, at least at the time of making this movie. I don't know if he was Catholic, but he was Christian at least at the time of making this movie. So the idea that you can subscribe to this thought pattern and still be able to question and talk about it and it not be this whole like you must think exactly the way these people say, otherwise you are, you know, bad or whatever yeah, yeah, exactly as someone who got in a lot of trouble in uh catholic school, I these, these ideas and these concepts would have had you sitting right next to me oh yeah in detention so if not expelled, yes
Mari:yeah, exactly yes, yeah, yeah, enough about that, uh, fantasy world building you know, I like it.
Jonathan:The they were, I think it was. It's so layered and intertwined, I mean all these worlds sort of run together. The whole premise is that they were chasing after. What are they trying to do? They're trying to find uh. They're trying to get all the good, all the good weed in the uh. Or they're trying to sell weed to uh. Was it the town like where the Brat Pack was from?
Jonathan:Right, when where all the the brat pack movies were set I think jay and silent bob, their setup, their shtick, really carries a majority of of kevin's films oh, for sure yeah, I love the integration too.
Ashley:You know it was fairly catholic based in the, you know, in the discussion of religion, but how they branch off into actual mythology, right. So they bring up serendipity. Who's amused? Is that in the bible?
Mari:I don't believe. So I wrote down the same thing when I was like, yeah, they did like christian mythology mixed with like greek mythology right, mixed with, I I think and if someone knows better, please correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Jewish mysticism, because I think golems come from like Jewish mythology Ooh, good catch and like the golem monster thing I think it was supposed to be a golem, it was a mix of that.
Kelly:So the muses Dante kind of, is the one who kind of pulled the muses into Christianity in a way, oh, basically expressing that the Greek and Roman Muses, the concept of the Muses, were Divine inspiration, right Allegory, you know, kind of like they were talent given by God.
Mari:Let's take that idea and adopt that too. Right, we took Easterter, we took christmas. Let's.
Kelly:Let's take that idea too dante did a lot of like in his work where he had like invocations to the muses as being, you know, god's divine inspiration interesting.
Ashley:That's very interesting because I'd also never heard of azrael being a muse. Is that in a mythology, kelly? Do you know? Is that in your bank?
Kelly:what do you mean as? Azrael as a muse, like the demon azrael, because he was he he claimed to be.
Ashley:He never appears. That's why he didn't fight in the war. Right azrael was never in the Christian Bible.
Kelly:So Asriel doesn't exist in the Christian Bible, he exists in the Judaism where he is the angel of death in Jewish and.
Ashley:Islamic traditions Fascinating. We're just learning so much today, guys, yeah, I thought, yeah. Learning so much today, guys yeah I thought, yeah. So from a fantasy building world, as ridiculous as this entire movie is, I really was just entertained all the way through, just because you have I mean, obviously I didn't know that azrael came from jewish. You know lore, although I had recognized the name you know as as pretty profound in the demonic. You know storytelling that I've read. I was fully entertained, you know, with with this fantasy building. You know you have God, who's referenced as a man and a woman or a male and a female in this story. Everybody has their own opinions. You have a. You have Chris Rock, and it's it's hard to look at his character and take him seriously. He really, he really added some depth was it his nipples?
Jonathan:no, it was not. That's why. That's why he lost me.
Ashley:That's why interesting, it wasn't alan rickman's kendall body no, no, no, I like alan rickman. Alan rickman can show up with pants off anytime but to have, like a 13th apostle and you know, basically say that he was left out because he was black. You know what I mean. Like, I just thought it covered quite a lot in a short amount of time and it wasn't the most unrealistic bullshit that you've ever heard in your life and the story flowed nicely. Yeah, god was a skeeball fanatic who knew. You know Five, five for fantasy.
Jonathan:I was entertained all day or for 120 minutes.
Mari:What did you give it, jonathan?
Jonathan:I give it a five. I like this one, I like the, I like the idea of the, the journey like even though, like I don't think we got to see anything truly groundbreaking in terms of like special effects or like we didn't go to like a different plane of existence, I didn't doubt that that plane of existence existed, if that makes sense. Like it was seeing uh, the apostle fall from the sky. You're like, oh, he came from somewhere. I didn't even, I don't remember, I don't even think I questioned like where the heck he came from somewhere.
Ashley:I don't even think I questioned where the heck he came from.
Jonathan:He came, he was ours, he was just there, yeah, so that was neat. I would have liked to have seen had a little bit more time spent with Janine Garofalo.
Mari:Oh I love her.
Kelly:Yeah, it was strange, she just had the one bit appearance.
Mari:Yeah, yeah. What do you think about the world building Kelly?
Kelly:I think it was decent. I gave it a four. I think Kevin Smith blended a lot of interesting elements together. Some of it didn't really make sense. Some of it was kind of that quirky.
Kelly:Kevin Smith that's a funny little bit that he gives a character like Azrael coming into the house and cranking the air conditioning down into the house and cranking the air conditioning down, you know just little things like that that make the characters kind of feel more fleshed out. I think that where there was a little bit of stumbling was in some of the story not making real good sense as far as things put together. You know the whole concept of the last Scion and that kind of stuff I don't think it really worked very well. But overall I think it was an it made for a good movie and I think it was a good structured world and good elements that blended together. Just a few hiccups yeah, I think.
Mari:I think that the world building was interesting. I liked, um, all the different lores being kind of brought in and meshed together. I thought that was well done. I also really liked and this isn't new to Dogma, but I always like it in books that deal with the idea of evil and good or heaven and hell or whatever, this contest of wills between the two sides and when there's loopholes and legalese and like I don't know if I'd call it political intrigue as much as it is just this, like I don't know, almost like a chess game between the sides. I like that aspect of it. So for me it was a four for the whole world building aspect of this movie. I thought that was, it was fun. I like that aspect of it. What do we think about the romance?
Ashley:Oh man, that aspect of it. What do we think about the romance? Oh man, there was no romance there was, there was quick building, friendship and alliances. You, you felt them mostly care about each other, right, um, especially jay and silent bob, like that's the best romance you've ever seen in your entire life. Those guys love each other and I love that for them. Um, but like traditional romantic speaking, that's like a one you didn't think it was uh.
Jonathan:You didn't think that jay was trying to uh woo. Throughout the whole movie. The whole deal was like we'll take you.
Ashley:He didn't woo. I just said there was no romance. We'll take you there, but we't say he didn't woo. I just said there was no romance.
Jonathan:We'll take you there. But we got a bang kind of thing you know. And then they made the deal right away to have a bangening.
Ashley:I didn't think about bangening Good job.
Jonathan:Yeah, except he gets to drive, and then I love that. That's one of my favorite parts. What gear are you in Now? It wasn't a whole bunch of. There's nothing romantic in less slapstick sexual advances that didn't age. Well, if that's your idea of romance, then sure, but I'll give it a two for that.
Mari:Oh, wow. Okay, Kelly, idea of uh romance, then sure, but I'll give it a two for that oh, wow.
Kelly:Okay, kelly, I think I agree with ashley. The only real romance that was going on is the jay and silent bob bromance here here and I guess maybe there was some kind of a bromance between loki and bartleby. But yeah, I think as far as like romance goes, it was a one.
Ashley:What does he call him His hetero life mate?
Jonathan:Yeah.
Mari:I think the romance for me. I put question marks. I think the only thing remotely romance I got out of it was Loki and Bartleby's dysfunctional romance with God, like the conversation they had with where I think it was, bartleby and Bethany were having the conversation about their exes and Barbie was talking about God like his ex, and I guess what got me thinking about it. Basically, loki and Bartleby are are jilted exes of God and God doesn't want him back, but they're like still showing up with the boom box and showing up at the door and stalking God at work.
Mari:I'm like, does God need help? Does God need a restraining order against these guys? Because it's not healthy. So yeah, I zero if zero is an option. Yeah. Spice oh there was spice Sure.
Ashley:Yeah, spice. Oh, there was spice. I don't think any of us will forget Alan Rickman in that state. I know I was changed after that. I didn't even know who Alan Rickman was at the time I was young, forgive me. There was a lot of spicy things. Was it appropriate spice? Is it all jokes that held up today? Probably not. It was entertaining. Spice Like a two and a half.
Jonathan:Hmm, I agree, there was spice. We can all talk about Alan's strategically placed nub. I'll talk about Alan's strategically placed nub. As well as the muse's dance off there, a little spicy dance going on there, oh yeah. Selma Hayek at the clinic to to hook up, because the he thought it was a a much more reasonable opportunity. The odds were ever in his favor. The deal to to get some action even when even when the world was coming to an end he was taking off his pants. So, yeah, I think uh it was very prophetic.
Jonathan:Yeah, I think he was ready to, ready to rock and roll, so I'm going to give it like three and a half. Three and a half. Kelly, did you pick up any spice vibes?
Kelly:No, not really. I think the best thing. I think Ashley was pretty much on point. The only real thing that was there is, you know, the teasing of Alan Rickman and Salma Hayek's little striptease-ish dance. What was your rating there, Kelly? So a two, Mari.
Mari:I will go with a two because of Alan Rickman and Salma Hayek. Like they can both get it. Yes, a hundred percent. Like the acting may have not been there for me, but I love them both. So, yeah, yeah, that's all I'm going to say about that. I love them both. So, yeah, yeah, that's all I'm going to say about that. I'm just like the same year this came out, the mummy came out, and that had such a different place in my heart. I'm just like I can't believe these both came out at the same time, same year. So such a wild time. 1999 was a wild time. Yeah, who knew? Who knew? The last question, the catch you by surprise question Ash, every time, is this a kissing movie?
Ashley:Is it a kissing movie? Listen, if Jay wasn't mildly in love with Bethany in the only way that Jay can be, the only way that Jay can be, would Jay and Silent Bob have traveled with her on this arguably insane quest to stop two angels from entering a church and ending humanity? I don't know that. The answer to that is no, and so for that reason, I think it's Kissing Book.
Mari:Okay.
Jonathan:Interesting.
Ashley:You like how I got there.
Jonathan:Yeah, I think so For the most part, until you say what you said. I was going to say. I was going to say nah, but I would say thinking back further, like if we do take, if we take Jay and Silent Bob out of the story, Bethany's dead, so their quest and the reason they were drawn to the clinic was one of love, or lust.
Jonathan:Lust of some sort of satisfaction of their own desire, their own wicked intent. So I would say this, I would say the story doesn't get past the uh what's without Jay and silent Bob, and because of their quest for uh, lust, uh, I would say yeah, uh, this isn't the kissing book. If you would ask me that 10 minutes ago, though, I probably would have said no, thanks, ash.
Ashley:I live to serve.
Jonathan:Kelly, what do you think?
Ashley:Yeah, Kelly, what do you think?
Kelly:I mean I have to say no. It's not a kissing book, kissing movie. The plot didn't hinge on any romance.
Ashley:I think Jay loved her the only way he knew how.
Mari:I don't think he loved her at all. I I I'm with kelly I I it was a no for me. Um, I mean, the movie had its value. I'm not saying it's a bad movie. I just don't think it was had a romance based element to it.
Jonathan:Um, is this is was there a a banging?
Mari:I mean, I guess god banged the baby into bethany said banged a baby into bethany.
Jonathan:So I guess, or was that like the mediterran? Did the mediterran bang the baby in, or did god bang the baby in? I?
Mari:I don't know. My assumption was God did it when she healed the wound she had at the end.
Jonathan:I think that's where I kind of like I maybe got a little lost. I thought Alan Rickman grabbed her in the stomach and was like now.
Ashley:Now, this is the last time, yeah.
Jonathan:Which is interesting, because what if she didn't want to?
Ashley:She did, okay, yeah that was part of her. What if she didn't?
Jonathan:want to, she did Okay. Yeah, that was part of her bitterness.
Ashley:That was part of the premise of her losing the faith Right.
Jonathan:Oh, okay, cool.
Ashley:You can see where he stopped paying attention.
Jonathan:Yeah, I like me some ones. Yeah, I like I'm not going to get his name right. What's the actor that I like?
Ashley:That doesn't narrow it down.
Mari:From this movie.
Jonathan:Yeah, Loki.
Mari:Matt Damon.
Jonathan:He's so cute like a little puppy dog when he's drunk.
Ashley:Ben Affleck.
Jonathan:Wait, no, Matt Damon Ben Affleck snaps at the end. Yeah, but you don't really see loki drunk a whole bunch no, just at the end, when he cuts links off, and he's human oh then my yeah, I love that for matt damon being a little puppy dog no, he had a fun.
Ashley:I think he had a lot of fun making this movie maybe any final thoughts?
Jonathan:how do we feel?
Mari:going back to the 90s movie. So much smoking in this movie so yeah like smoking in the workplace, smoking on the train.
Jonathan:I'm just like, wow, interesting how times have changed right, it was the time like you could go into a restaurant and just sit down and there were didn't make that. I mean I bet you go on, go on eBay and buy like the McDonald's ashtrays.
Ashley:Probably, Kevin. We hope you get your movie back.
Mari:Yeah, I would absolutely watch a sequel, for sure. It'd be interesting to see if he did that.
Jonathan:What would you do if you were steering the sequel?
Ashley:What element.
Jonathan:Do you think it needs?
Ashley:It's going to be hard without Alan what element do you think it needs?
Mari:it's going to be hard without alan. Yeah, I think it would be interesting if it brought in other other religions, not necessarily just the christianity based ones and I understand that that's what kevin smith is familiar with because that's what he grew up in. But it would be interesting to have other other dogmas and other religions kind of woven in a little bit more centrally to the plot, you know yeah, I think that would be kind of cool I like that idea yeah, then he wouldn't be anchored to like the same characters, cast yeah, I mean he could.
Jonathan:He would have to bring like jay and silent bob in, for sure. Yeah, I can still bring chris rock in.
Mari:For sure you can still bring Chris Rock in, alright? Anything else before we wrap it up? No, I think that covers it Alright. So thanks for listening to Of Swords and Soulmates. Before we go, make sure to check the show notes, rate, review and subscribe to us on your podcast app of choice. It helps others to find us. Follow us on Instagram at Of Swords and Soulmates, or join our Facebook page at of swords and soulmates. Check us out on our website of swords and soulmates dot com, or on YouTube, tiktok and Pinterest with the same username.
Mari:If you'd like to offer a suggestion for a future episode, reach out to us, give us your opinion, etc. Please do so, etc. Please do so if you want to read along with us as we prep for a new episode. Follow us on goodreads at of swords and soulmates, or for chapter by chapter interaction on the fable app at the of swords and soulmates book club, and we also have a tome account under the of swords and soulmates name where you can find us as well. And last but not least, we hope you'll join us in two weeks for our next episode, where we'll be discussing brighter than scale, swifter than flame, a queer novella for pride month by neon yang bye.
Ashley:Thank you.
