"Crown of Midnight" - A deadly game of secrets and lies

Unraveling the secrets of Sarah J. Maas's intricate fantasy world, we dive deep into "Crown of Midnight," the pivotal second installment of the Throne of Glass series. Our hosts explore how this book serves as the essential bridge that transforms what seemed like a straightforward assassin tale into an epic fantasy with far-reaching implications.

The conversation examines Celaena's complex journey as she secretly spares her targets while pretending to fulfill her duties as the king's champion. This moral struggle sets the stage for the shocking tragedy that our hosts identify as the true catalyst that reshapes everything. Was this sacrifice planned? The mysterious Chapter 25 suggests a sacrifice to spark something greater, a revelation that hit our hosts differently during their first and second readings.

Magic emerges as a central force in this installment, with Dorian's unexpected abilities, the introduction of the witches, and tantalizing glimpses of ancient powers. We debate the effectiveness of these elements, with some hosts celebrating the expanded world-building while others question certain storytelling choices. The romance receives mixed reviews too, with compelling arguments that Kael might be more in love with the heroic idea of saving Selina than with truly knowing her.

By the end of "Crown of Midnight," her world – and identity – have been completely upended. The final reveal positions the series to explode into something far grander than readers might have anticipated from the first book. Whether you're continuing the journey through Erilea or considering whether to pick up this series, our breakdown offers both critical analysis and passionate appreciation for how this middle chapter transforms the Throne of Glass series.

• ·Links from the News Segment and Show:
  •  Independent Bookstore Day this year is Saturday April 26th
    •  https://www.bookweb.org/independent-bookstore-day
  • New Medusa retelling book
    • I, Medusa by Ayana gray

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Fable BookClub - https://fable.co/club/of-swords-and-soulmates-with-mari-391738504099

Transcript

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Podcast Introduction

Ashley 0:00

Views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the participants . The hosts make no claim to be literary experts and their opinions are exactly that opinions . All creative works discussed or reviewed are the intellectual property of the creators of said stories and is being used under the Fair Use Doctrine .

Mari 0:31

Hello and welcome to Of Swords and Soulmates , a podcast where we read , watch and discuss romanticist stories . I'm one of your hosts , mari , and with me I have Kelly .

Kelly 0:35

Hey everyone , it's Kelly . We also have Ashley .

Ashley 0:39

Hey guys , it's Ashley . We also have Jonathan .

Jonathan 0:42

What's good , everybody . It's JP . I'm losing my voice .

Mari 0:52

I've been fighting that all day . Yeah , we um as a group to took a group field trip and went to uh universal this past weekend , so we're all real tired we're recovering .

Ashley 0:59

I told somebody today I'm functioning at like 35 and and to try me again tomorrow , yeah , yeah , that feels right .

Mari 1:07

Yeah , so when we make mistakes today , please be nice Be gentle . So today we're going to be discussing Crown of Midnight , which is book two in the Throne of Glass series by Sarah J Maas . But first we're going to do some news Not a whole lot of news , unlike last episode , where we had all the news .

Mari 1:30

We really just have two news tidbits . The first one is that Independent Bookstore Day this year is on Saturday , april 26th , so a few days after this episode drops . If you have Independent Bookstore near you you may want to check them out and see if they have events going on . Sometimes they'll do like sales or games or just little like fun things to kind of help push the whole independent bookstore thing . Or you may want to make a trip and travel to one if you don't have one close by . I know that's something I was kind of thinking about doing . Maybe visiting when we have Different places do different things , like I know San Diego does like a little a book crawl thing .

Mari 2:15

The Houston , texas area does like at least last year they did almost like a bingo card thing where you like had to get a stamp at the different places and then you got entered into a raffle or something . So I mean it's not like a huge thing , but it's just it's a fun . It's a fun gamifying version of it . I'm all down for anytime they gamify things . It makes it just an added level of fun .

Jonathan 2:32

So like the odds that you have . I mean , there are definitely some openings on the map and I just imagine they're less populated areas , but it looks like there's a lot . Let me just zoom in .

Ashley 2:57

There's nothing near us , which is interesting . So there's our local Romanacy bookstore . Has authors coming on Saturday , nice . So my sister was hoping that maybe we could trek out there . When , when was remember when I said what are we doing saturday , are you opposed ?

Ashley 3:13

to a bookshop and you were like , yeah , books great , yeah . Oh , it's also like touch a truck day , so like the fire trucks coming to like so the kids can come out and touch the truck , kind of thing . So we're going to do that in the morning , cause our niece is obsessed with civil workers right now , so like policemen , firemen , um , and we want her to understand that that's something that she can do one day if she wants to .

Ashley 3:39

Yeah , it was super cute . That's an issue , so we're going to do that . And then , remember , I said trucks and then books and you were like , yeah , trucks and books .

Jonathan 3:46

That's fine . I didn't realize it was for Savannah . I thought the trucks were for Goose . But yeah , we're bumping into some issues with her not being able to interpret .

Ashley 3:57

It was like can girls do this too ?

Jonathan 3:58

Yeah , it's like yeah , you can do whatever you . Yeah , you can do whatever you can do . That I think she tried to throw her dad under the bus . This is totally not true . I mean , the story I'm going to tell you is true , but it's not true what she told me . She was being a kid . She said my daddy says that only daddies drive and I was like . I was in the passenger seat , ashley was driving .

Mari 4:30

And I was like ma'am , I know , know your father , that doesn't sound like something he would say .

Ashley 4:32

She was like , okay , you got me , she's funny . Well , I'm glad you guys uh , that she's in , you guys are in her life to set her right . Yeah , no , we're , we're on that . But then , yeah , we're gonna go see some romancy authors afterwards , hopefully okay sounds good , he didn't even know .

Mari 4:42

Just along for the ride . Yeah , sounds good . The only other news tidbit I have is that there is a new Medusa story retelling coming out . It's going to be called I Medusa like I comma space Medusa , and it is by Ayanna Gray . I've never read anything by her and I think this is her first adult book . She's a bestseller in some YA books , but this is her first adult book . It is going to be coming out November 18th , 2025

Crown of Midnight and Independent Bookstore Day

Mari 5:16

. And it seems interesting . It's basically like the story of the reimagining of the story of Medusa before she becomes like a Gorgon , so kind of early Medusa storyline .

Jonathan 5:29

It's interesting . It does seem like maybe she's written a few other books in the I'm assuming in the romanticity genre , because I see , like some of her other titles , beasts of War , beasts of Ruin , beasts of Prey . I'm assuming that Beasts is a movie . Doesn't that mean yeah , I don't know if they're .

Mari 5:51

Romanesie . I know they're YA , but I don't know if they're Romanesie . I've not read them , so I'm not sure what the storylines are .

Ashley 6:00

It's a very pretty book .

Jonathan 6:03

Oh , 100% yeah .

Ashley 6:04

Sprayed edges , and all on this link . It's like they know we're suckers now I know I love a Medusa retelling , though , so even without the pretty edges , I'm like that one's on my radar .

Mari 6:16

I think I'll probably end up picking that one up , so we'll see .

Ashley 6:23

Anybody else have any news tidbits ? If I do , I don't remember . I'm not going to lie to anybody . I am not on my game today .

Mari 6:29

No .

Kelly 6:29

I think we mainly exhausted it last week .

Mari 6:32

really , we did like all the news .

Ashley 6:34

There was a lot to talk about on the last one .

Mari 6:38

All right . So , moving on to the book , why we chose this book ? I mean , sarah J Moss is , you know , one of the main names people think of when they think of romancy , and this is her only completed series , so it's good one to read . It's also one I like , so I browbeat everyone I can .

Kelly 7:00

I mean , there's the real reason .

Ashley 7:02

Yeah , the truth comes out . Is Crescent City not finished ? I thought it was .

Mari 7:07

I don't believe . So I don't know . I haven't read the third one . I assumed there was going to be more , but I'm not sure . You know what I may be speaking . I may be wrong . I'm on book two and I thought that there was going to be more Crescent City than just the three , but that may be me just assuming .

Ashley 7:24

um , I I'm really not sure oh , jk , she confirmed that there's a fourth book .

Mari 7:29

Okay , according to ai , but don't quote me guys , because I'm super lazy tonight no , all good , I was looking it up and I there's nothing that's on anything for any potential pre-order or names or anything which I I'm sure we would have heard of something if there was an actual release date for another sarah j maas . So yeah , I don't know what she's working on now , because it seems like , depending on what groups and people you know you end up associating with on Instagram or TikTok or whatever , whatever you're interested in is what everyone's talking about that she's writing next .

Ashley 7:59

So maybe it's another Crescent City , maybe it's another you know , the next in the ACOTAR series , who knows ?

Mari 8:10

so the last book that she dropped was book three in Crescent City yeah , so one would hope that she's gonna alternate well , and I know that there was like at some point she posted a picture of herself like in the snowy mountains , very ACOTAR-esque , valaris-esque right alerian mountains situation . So people were saying that she was working on the next book . But yeah , who knows ?

Ashley 8:33

who knows ? We'll know when we know to the best , there are fewer far rumors in between for her less than rebecca yaros . I feel yeah , so we'll see All right .

Mari 8:45

So this book was published August 27th of 2013 . I'm going to read the synopsis and then we can get into it . Selina Sardothian won a brutal contest to become the king's champion , but she is far from loyal to the crown , though she goes to great lengths to hide her secret . Her deadly charade becomes more difficult when she realizes she is not the only one seeking justice . Her search for answers ensnares those closest to her , and no one is safe from suspicion Not the crown , prince Dorian , not Kael , the captain of the guard , not even her best friend , nehemia , a princess with a rebel heart . Then , one terrible night , the secrets they have all been keeping lead to an unspeakable tragedy . As Selina's world shatters , she will be forced to decide once and for all where her true loyalties lie and what she's willing to fight for . The second book in the number one best-selling Throne of Glass series returns readers to a land destroyed by liars , where one woman's truth is the only thing that can save them all . All right , spoiler warning .

Kelly 9:44

Spoiler warning kelly well , from this point forward , we will be having spoilers for this book as well as book one .

Mari 9:51

I'm sure if stuff comes from book one of throne of glass , throne of glass and crown of midnight , we're going to talk about those two books , I'm sure , interspersed yeah , and despite her best efforts , marie may spoil some of the other books I will not that's game .

Jonathan 10:04

I've been good , haven't I ? Yeah ? You've been good , you've been good . The only one , uh , the only one that spoiled anything this week so far was me and your dragon training movies and I completely forgot what it was anyway .

Mari 10:18

So it's fine , I've noted it out of my head . It it's all good .

Jonathan 10:22

I'm back on solid ground .

Mari 10:23

Yes , it's all good . So what did we think of the book ? Overall rating .

Ashley 10:30

Me first . Yeah , overall rating was like a three and a half . This was not the most action-packed book and it felt like a little bit of a filler right Because you needed to expand storylines . You know what I mean . Like we're starting to get into the deeper roots of the problems you know in this land and the people , while also expanding individual storylines , because there's a lot that happens . This isn't just Selina , it is Dorian he's got his own shit going on and Kaol , who is going through some stuff and finding some stuff out , you know . So I think there's still so much left to explore and discover . King bad guy um and his devious plots of tyranny , um . But I really liked selena's development because , I mean , you got to remember they're just , they're basically kids , right ?

Ashley 11:35

like she's like 20 yeah , 18 , 20 , and not for nothing . Sarah j mass was quite young when this was published , so when she wrote it she was even younger . I thought it was very well . It was a little slow in the beginning . I really liked , you know , dorian's development in his own specific story . I'm curious to see where that leads off to with , you know him being magical like I . Yeah , I kind of seem to come out of left field there . Selena's selena's story seems to really really , you know , sink in here . She acknowledges some things about herself .

Ashley 12:12

She avenges , you know , several people in this book to an extent while working through her own shit . So not the most amazing book , but I can see see the potential leading up into the next few . So it's a three and a half for me and the dog is alive . Fleetfoot is safe . Most important Most important I mean it was touch and go there for a minute .

Mari 12:39

Yeah .

Ashley 12:41

You lose me when we lose the dog . Yeah , yeah .

Mari 12:44

Jonathan , what'd you think ?

Jonathan 12:46

Oh , it was , uh it . You know , I thought the book . I lost track of how , how old old she she

Book Synopsis and Plot Overview

Jonathan 12:55

is , like it feels like she just kind of had like a really kind of shit go at things and then , as things evolved in her own , in her own life , overall I feel like we got a lot of transitional material in this book . There were some interesting pivots and changes to the storyline , love interest shift , shift and some solidify Coming into this book . I wasn't quite sure where I stood , but leaving this book at the end of book two , I was currently on Team KO and I'm indifferent about the dog . I feel like the dog is a warning system . It's just if you have a dog in general , it's a warning system or last ditch supply of food . You know what I mean . You know a little bit of barbecue sauce kind of thing .

Mari 13:56

I can feel , ashley , giving you the dagger stares from here .

Jonathan 14:01

She is , but for a totally different reason . She wants me to hand her a puzzle piece and I'm just not complying because I'm talking and I need to keep my mind on my mind focused , and so I'm not intentionally not handing her this puzzle piece . That's how easy easily I get distracted . Overall , I'm still going to give this book a five stars . I like , I like I like the series . Gonna give this book , uh , five stars , I like , I like I like the series . I want to know more specifically about one , like I want to know more about the , the witches .

Ashley 14:35

Okay , is that in book two ?

Jonathan 14:37

yeah , baba , yellow legs . Oh , and the iron tooth . You're lucky , ironoth , I forgot all about her .

Ashley 14:43

as you can tell , that did not impact me at all .

Jonathan 14:46

Yeah , she comes in to like it's weird because , like , if she wanted to take out Dorian , why didn't she when she had the chance and why did she leave it for Selina to come by ? And then she leveraged Dorian , the knowledge of Dorian , against Selina . It's just , it's interesting to see these things , these types of things , kind of shake out . It almost feels like like a not not the comedic part of it , but like the game , the board game clue , or the movie clue , or it's like , uh , you know , all these people are being brought into one space for one particular reason .

Jonathan 15:24

Yeah , who's the puppet master ? Even though I think we probably understand who the puppet master is throughout this book , but I don't know . Anywho , I'm sure I've gone off the rails a whole bunch there . Kelly , what did you think ? Did you give it a ?

Mari 15:36

rating . I'm sorry , you did , you gave it five stars .

Kelly 15:37

Oh yeah , yeah so yeah . So Kelly , another author who's bringing Baba Yaga into this , and that really just kind of drowned my interest in the book . What does Baba mean .

Mari 16:00

I think Baba is grandmother , I believe .

Kelly 16:03

It's just , baba Yaga is such an overused trope and I , just when I see it get used , it just immediately lessens my interest in the story . It's almost like a go-to trope for authors nowadays , and even back then it's just like , oh , we can't think of what else to do . Let me throw Baba Yaga in here . Oh , I need some kind of evil witchy person . You know , blah , blah , blah , baba Yaga . So I was very disappointed in that . I didn't think it fit into where the story had been so far . It was a hard turn from what lore had already been developed . I enjoyed the character developments that went on . I enjoyed seeing Selina's how she made after the whole sort of betrayal thing , how she made a hard choice . That was interesting and how things kind of shook out towards the end . But yeah , just the Baba Yaga moment , just really kind of just like blah I was just blah on that . And then this magic fucking doorknob .

Jonathan 17:04

Oh , that now decides to speak up .

Kelly 17:07

You know now what's his name Mort or Mort , yeah , like decides to speak up now , after all the other shit had been going on . Now it decides to speak up . You know , Elena had talked to Selena , but now is the time he decides to speak up , so that was just kind of like Selena needed a exposition mouthpiece an explainer and that was what the author used .

Kelly 17:32

And don't get me wrong , it was humorous , but just I don't know very forced . Yeah , it just did not fit . Like all of a sudden , this magic doorknob starts talking Like why , now , what changed ? And it's really because , oh because , I needed to explain stuff to you .

Kelly 17:48

I needed to explain stuff to the reader exposition dump yeah , so I think that was a little lazy as well . So in the end I gave this book a three and , as far as I'm concerned , kale , chale , whatever , howale , whatever how you want to pronounce it is a total douchebag and she should have totally killed him .

Mari 18:08

Multiple times .

Kelly 18:09

Yes .

Mari 18:09

Yeah . So I've heard Baba only as it comes in relation to Slavic languages , like Baba Yaga , but I looked it up Apparently in Arabic and in African languages Baba means father , but in Slavic languages Baba means like old lady or grandmother . So like you know , grandma Jones , grandma Smith , it would be like Baba . You know , whatever Baba Smith . So for me I had like the exact opposite reaction of Kelly when Baba Yellowlegs came into the picture . I got so excited because I love the Baba Yaga storyline , baba Yaga trope , I just think it's an interesting character , and so I was very excited to have that be brought in .

Mari 19:01

That's all I'll say at this point In my reread . This is my second time reading the books and I will say that the first time I read it I gave it a five stars and the second time I will also give it a five stars . For me , this is the point at which I was like , oh , I see how and why there's all these books now and I see how and why so many people enjoy this series . This is the beginning of where the world starts to open up , where it's a little bit more than just Selina's world . Yeah , we get a little bit of like what you guys mentioned what's going on with Dorian and magic . We get a little bit more of what's going on in the world . We get the rebellion , we get other you know potential , other kinds of magic , other things going on and other characters getting put into places .

Mari 19:49

I feel like this time reading the book , it had more emotional resonance for me . It had more emotional resonance for me than the first time I read the books . About midway through the book I had to take a little mini break and go read some other things . When the princess died , it was real rough . And the chapter 33 , where it's just the slave girl in the Calcutta slave mine and hearing that her only hope basically has died Woof , that chapter definitely impacted me more the second time through . Yeah , overall five stars for me . I very much enjoyed it . I know Shock , so I know Shock , so Hold on .

Ashley 20:48

Somebody's knocking at our door .

Jonathan 20:50

Yeah , we don't have friends .

Ashley 20:51

Uh-oh Thanks .

Jonathan 20:53

We have a ring camera .

Ashley 20:55

It's got a tablet .

Jonathan 20:56

Yeah , we can't run . They're trying to sell us stuff .

Ashley 20:59

Sorry , continue , that was scary .

Jonathan 21:02

When you don't expect it , not the you , that was scary . When you don't expect a knock , the suspense the second time somebody's been to the door tonight . They're just trying to sell the last one not Amazon , no , they're trying to sell

Overall Ratings and Character Development

Jonathan 21:11

solar power . He's going to knock again 3 , 2 , 1 . Yeah , let's go away .

Ashley 21:18

That's aggressive knocking .

Jonathan 21:20

That's okay .

Ashley 21:20

He's trying to earn his money .

Jonathan 21:22

I'm not mad at him Just if I go look . That's okay , he's trying to earn his money . I'm not mad at him Just if I go look at my aura ring . I'm sure it's going to show an elevated heart rate . Yeah , I wonder how long he has to wait until he figures out that I'm not coming . He's hoping Okay , cool , we're good , that was a close call . I'm going to talk to someone .

Ashley 21:44

We almost died you guys .

Jonathan 21:45

Yeah , where were we ? Kelly was telling us all about how much he likes . Oh sorry , I agree , mari .

Mari 21:58

Okay , yeah .

Jonathan 22:00

I see where Kelly is going with it too , where it's like you know the same . How many times can you use the same characters or character types ?

Mari 22:28

A whole bunch apparently spooky , bad guy kind of character . But you're not going to have , like , a mother character , because that's not necessarily like mothering , isn't necessarily the vibe you're going for . You're not going to have a maid character because that's , you know , youthful and innocent and whatever You're going to go for the crone character , which is what Baba Yaga is , it's the crone archetype of a witch . So , yeah , I like the way the witches are described in this , I like the , the idea of the iron nails and the iron teeth right and that's freaky .

Jonathan 23:03

Do they tuck them back like what's going on with that ? I'd like I need a visual you have questions but I don't need . Yeah , I got lots of questions and I like the idea of like .

Mari 23:11

Oh , you know , however , much long ago , there was this epic battle between all these different kinds of witch kingdoms , and you know the ones who won didn't really win because their land got cursed . You know the Iron Teeth fought the Krokan dynasty and the Krokan dynasty on their dying you know curse as their dying . Curse basically said okay well , you have control of the land , but so long as you have control of the land , the land will be barren .

Jonathan 23:39

It's just good flavor . That's the shit end of the stick . Right , that's the shitty end of the stick . You could have the garden , but it's not going to grow anywhere .

Mari 23:46

Right , right , but I've salted the land , so to speak . One thing that I realized this time through that I did not realize the first time reading it and you guys may have realized it more , since you probably read more closely than I did so , chapter 25 , where it's the queen and the princess . Did you guys get who that was ?

Jonathan 24:13

um , I don't know , the chapter off the top of my head , like , it's like super short , it's like five paragraphs .

Mari 24:22

Um , give me one sec , I'm gonna read it to you .

Jonathan 24:25

Um like I had . I know I like reread sections over and over again , like when I feel like I missed something so like I I know for a fact , like I missed , like I didn't quite understand where the hell more , more or more , more , or I don't know , I didn't understand where . Like it was just I was reading , I'm reading along , reading along , reading along . All of a sudden , bam , he's there yeah , well it's like what kelly said .

Mari 24:49

It's like okay , we've been in this location before . Why didn't't Mort speak up before ?

Jonathan 24:54

Yeah , no , I agree , I was just and I was like so I was like how to back up and be like what did I miss ?

Mari 24:59

So here's chapter 25 . One of them has to break . The queen said to the princess Only then can it begin . I know the princess said softly , but the prince isn't ready . It has to be her . Then do you understand what I'm asking of you ? The princess looked up toward the shaft of moonlight spilling into the tomb . When she looked back at the ancient queen , her eyes were bright . Yes , then do what needs to be done . The princess nodded and walked out of the tomb . She paused on the threshold , the darkness beyond beckoning to her , and turned back to the queen . She won't understand , and when she she goes over the edge , there'll be nothing to pull her back . She will find her way back . She always does . Tears formed , but the princess blinked them away .

Ashley 25:41

For all our sakes , I hope you're right so that one definitely took me some time , but my guess is that it's nahemia and um the queen , queen elaine yeah , yeah , yeah .

Jonathan 25:57

So nahemia , like the whole martyr figure , she , she knew she was , she knew she had to die to forward the cause yeah , yeah , I think , um , I think she knew , like you , somebody's got to go first to , to pull like to , to trigger deeper movement . I do feel like we you know what it is it's . I feel like we , it's a um , who's that wolfy guy from , uh , harry potter who checks out like half a sentence after he arrives from prison ? Harry's goddaddy , serious , yeah , totally serious .

Ashley 26:35

Sir , we are too tired for the dad joke .

Jonathan 26:38

Yes , that's the one . I fell into that one .

Ashley 26:41

Apologize .

Jonathan 26:45

Yeah , like serious , you have this spirit guide . Yeah , exactly . Something has to happen . Something has to be listened closely , ashley , push your ear , your your headphones closer to your ear holes so that you can hear this word I'm going to use for you , right , something has to be the catalyst .

Ashley 27:05

I didn't get any points actually , oh , damn it oh did you know , though , it was nahemia and the queen talking in that chapter .

Jonathan 27:15

Well , that was marie's question oh , when they use different perspectives , I never know what's going on until later . I'm like I'm an oblivious husband ashley that doesn't make any sense .

Mari 27:24

You're the one that's trying to predict all the shit before it ends yeah did you figure it out , kelly , when you read it yeah , I mean , I think it was pretty obvious yeah , I think I was just oblivious .

Ashley 27:35

I mean that's fair . I don't think I fully grasped the um the girl in the cave like the slave oh yeah I didn't understand what was happening there , or like how the news spread to her if it wasn't somebody that we already knew . Does that make sense ? Like yeah , yeah that I can see why the scene is impactful , but I didn't understand how we got there .

Jonathan 28:02

That one felt a little strange yeah , I didn't understand why she didn't understand who was leaving the word marks to protect her , like she kept just erasing them , and she didn't know what they were .

Ashley 28:14

Yeah , she knew they were word marks , but she didn't know they were protection right and then I didn't understand why .

Jonathan 28:22

Initially , why things were so okay , like the opening , that the portal was so easy for her , like if it was there was no child child proof cap on that well , no , so there's no magic magic is a thousand percent banned , but she has it innately uh , like love will find a way , kind of thing , magic , well , I think , magic .

Jonathan 28:44

You can't hold magic back , right , it's gonna be like it's gonna be . You have to be very I imagine you have to be very powerful . I think it's why you would need all three , well , but that's that's .

Ashley 28:55

The point , though , is that they had exterminated the magic users . No one was supposed to have survived that , so no , she didn't know she was capable of this , and it was so easy because she was magical . How do you think ?

Jonathan 29:09

like , how do you ? What makes you think that she has no idea of her past ? Because she would dream right and she would have these moments where it felt like she knew .

Mari 29:25

I think she knew her past , she does .

Ashley 29:28

She doesn't outright say so in book two .

Mari 29:31

It's a little bit of an unreliable narrator thing . She knows what she knows , but we don't know what she knows correct .

Jonathan 29:38

Yeah , it comes to light in book three yeah , but I mean also like when she goes into the portal and she reveals so like this is the other thing it's revealed , for it wasn't a choice yeah , that's what I was gonna say . Like it , I to me . I was like what's happening here and is it her ? So I don't know what . Is this her true form ? Is this her adjacent form ? Is this other form ?

Ashley 30:01

That's why you have to keep reading .

Mari 30:04

Kelly saw that coming , didn't you , Kelly ?

Kelly 30:06

Yes .

Mari 30:08

Yeah , we were listening to the book on the drive home at that part . And as soon as it happened , kelly's like , of course , yeah , the book on the drive home , um , at that part . And as soon as it happened , kelly's like , of course , yeah , I , I didn't see it coming first time . I read it , but like a lot of times I don't . So I'm not the best indicator for that . I'm not trying to figure it all out so I wasn't surprised .

Ashley 30:28

I assumed that there had to be something more . But what it ? What it ended up being wasn't necessarily a surprise , but I don't know that I necessarily saw it coming . But again to jonathan's point , it's a catalyst , right ?

Mari 30:41

yeah , something you've been suppressing for , you know , over a decade , is now coming to the front with extreme emotions , which was the point I think also it was a red herring , because it happened and I'm like there's all these chapters left in the book , okay , we keep reading , and then the very end , at the very last chapter , I'm like wait , what ? I really did not see that coming . Yeah , I was like we've already had our big reveal . What is this ? Right , it's getting two desserts . There's more Got two kinks yeah .

Mari 31:18

Is this a fancy cheese platter after the dessert ?

Jonathan 31:25

How did you feel about I'm going to mess his name up ?

Ashley 31:29

Dorian .

Jonathan 31:29

No .

Ashley 31:30

Kale .

Jonathan 31:31

No Dart .

Ashley 31:32

Archer , mort Archer .

Jonathan 31:34

That's Archer , we got it yeah , I didn't see that coming I , I thought it was very interesting that she didn't want to let nahimia down throughout the entire book and uh , and she like kind of hid . She did a very good job of hiding the fact that she wasn't like murking all these people and just really giving them like second chances , which then says to me like she knows something's up . You know why does ? Why does the king want these people dead ? Why does he want them deaded in a specific ?

Mari 32:05

yeah , I think it says more about how little she trusted the king . Yeah , I mean , I don't know that she cared so much about the people .

Jonathan 32:11

She just didn't assume that just because the king wanted this person dead means that they deserve to die yeah , and archer presented the first uh real , the first real challenge to her because of his , because of his popularity . Like she couldn't just take , like uh , she wasn't traveling to a semi-distant place , she didn't have the opportunity to find some sort of cadaver to bring back in his place . Archer was going to be recognized .

Mari 32:41

I think it's partially that , but I think it's also partially that she knew him .

Mari 32:47

you know he wasn't a stranger to her yes you know , I mean , I think there's something to be said about yeah , she's an assassin , yeah , that's her job , that's her training , that's her background . But like that's also someone she knew and you know apparently hadn't killed them before . You know , I mean , it's not like he ran away from her when he saw her . You know she hadn't tried to kill him before or anything . So yeah , I think that there's that says something about that too , that she parts of her life are intersecting yeah , and how does ?

Jonathan 33:23

how does she go from like I love you , kail , to I can't believe you . Let her die , let me kill you , kael .

Mari 33:31

Oh , I thought that part had really good emotional resonance for me , like the turnaround , the betrayal she felt . Yeah , there were feels Like when she just got all visceral and like clawed the crap out of Kael's face in that moment . Woof , I thought that was very well done .

Jonathan 33:50

And then the internal struggle . The internal struggle , whatever the whatever's going on between Dorian and his and his daddy , like that's been present since chapter one , book one , a hundred percent , and it's just it's interesting that he has this emotional outburst and through him floods . This piece of magic , yeah .

Mari 34:14

What do we think about speaking of magic , the fantasy world building aspect ? What would you give it ?

Ashley 34:18

Ash , I think it was more interesting for me to see the plot twist with Dorian suddenly having magic . I'm curious to see how that develops and I'm assuming it has to do with , you know , genetics and her hereditary whatever . I think that's what made it super cool , because we understood that something was going on with Selena . We didn't know to what extent , but we knew that she was magical of some kind . Right To find out that Dorian was also magical and now has to keep it from his father , I felt was an entirely dramatic storyline . So I was interested in the magic for that .

Ashley 35:02

I thought Selina's magic was standard to you know what we understand Fade to be in other books . It was pretty telltale . I don't think we know enough . I think the word marks are interesting . I think some of the riddles are interesting . I'm not really sure I understood the whole monster in the basement part , except to say that the king's doing some nefarious

Fantasy World Building Discussion

Ashley 35:25

stuff . I don't know . It was like a three and a half for me . It wasn't anything out there out of this world , brand new , but it was interesting enough to keep me reading . You know , to want to read the next book .

Mari 35:37

Jonathan , what'd you think ?

Jonathan 35:38

You know , I like the world building . I like the idea that there are other magical creatures that , like some , that are permitted to live . Permitted to live . There's no way that Baba Yellowlegs is hanging out in that space without the king knowing that witches exist , right . I also think that he's allowing them to be to take up residence without because they're a weapon . They have to be a weapon for him in some way . I feel like he's got like maybe the king was born without and then took power and magic just gives off weird vibes to me , where it's just like it's always seeking some way to balance , whether it's a quote unquote price that you have to pay to use it , or if I've stolen it then it will be gifted to someone else , like somebody that will help balance that .

Mari 36:37

Like a balancing force .

Jonathan 36:38

yeah , yeah , and I feel like that's kind of what's happening too between father and son . I want this kid , I want my kingdom to be like this . I'm going to take , take , take and shape my kingdom and control everything , and magic's just going to chuck you the bird and be like you . Can we give you the illusion of control ? And that's the greatest magic trick there is the idea that I have a basement in my house , no matter how big my house is , and I don't know that it's there would be ridiculous to me . So I feel like the king knows what's there . I feel like anything you take from that space is the king left behind with deep intention . And I also feel like that , the monster that they encounter , where , where dorian begins to help and say I think I feel like that's a maybe , that's a creation of the king , what was ? It was like the ritterack . Yeah , was that summoned or was that ?

Jonathan 37:36

something that was summoned , okay , so I feel like maybe there's some you were . If you're a prisoner of the king um and you're once very human , very mortal , and the king um exhausted you and use , use you up and turned you into something else , I don't know , I don't have any of this verified .

Mari 37:56

What would you give it ?

Jonathan 37:57

I'm going to give it a four .

Mari 37:58

Okay . What about you , Kelly .

Kelly 38:01

I think it was interesting how they built on it from the first book . So there was some stuff that it got expanded upon , but then some of it didn't seem to make sense . Expanded upon , but then some of it didn't seem to make sense , particularly with the word marks it seemed there was the rules varied from person to person , place to place , so it wasn't consistent like I thought it should be . But it was an interesting departure .

Kelly 38:24

I think the thing that probably pissed me off the most about the magic and stuff was not only did we insert Baba Yaga into here , we also cribbed part of the plot from one of the Conan movies where Conan is fighting the wizard who's in all the mirrors and Conan just figures out he just has to smash the mirrors . Like that was straight up from Conan , like straight , straight up . That is exactly how that fight went down , with Conan and the wizard with the mirrors . So that was a little frustrating . So overall I thought the fantasy was . I think it felt like it was not as good as it was in the first book because some of the explanations didn't seem to jive up and again the mysterious mouth that just decides to talk now for no reason . So I actually gave it a three okay for me the fantasy world building .

Mari 39:23

It's probably a four and a half , because I do feel like it expanded on a lot of things and brought more things in , like I understand it's book two in a series , so it's setting up a lot of things . I like some of the distinctions it tried to make between like magic and old magic Tried to you know why is some magic working and others isn't ? Why do some entities have magic still available and others don't ? The Mort thing is weird . I remember even the first time I read it I was like what is this ? I think Queen Elena coming back and coming into play again brings some of the faded stuff and ghosts and stuff back into it . I think the whole deep labyrinth thing under the castle and you know whatever monsters or whatever are there , what's behind those doors , etc . It's interesting , I think , the concept of people being and please forgive me , I don't remember if this is in book one or book two , I think it's in this book that that the idea of like if you were some kind of a fey creature who could transform between animal and human and that's just part of your existence and then you get stuck in one of those just because that's you know , whenever magic went away , that's what you happen to be in that moment . The idea of being stuck is like I don't know , a , a rabbit or something for like your whole rest of your fae existence . There's something kind of horrifying about that and kind of interesting like thought experiment about that . Yeah , so I enjoyed it .

Mari 41:02

I enjoyed that this . I felt like this book started to lay down some political intrigue and like laying the pawns out on the board . You know the matriarch of the iron teeth or whatever , and then the king , and then you have the idea of magic . You know , you have the idea of rebel forces . I feel like a lot of like things are being brought out to the board and I always , like you know big , epic , fantasy type stories that have like political intrigue , where it's not just like oh , we were the most badass army , so we win . You know , I always like it when there's like things more than just brute strength that come into play . So yeah , I very much enjoyed this . What do we feel about the romance ?

Ashley 41:45

I did not love the romance . I mean , I get it . Girl's got to get her stuff right . The guy's hot . She's been in slave hell for the last year . She needed some relaxation but it was only like two weeks worth , poor thing . I know she had herself a man for two weeks .

Ashley 42:09

It was interesting to see her turn on him so quickly , although I think I understand why and I think you know some of that also speaks to her . Faye , you know responses . Um , there was just no controlling that . But that's how . That's how you know he wasn't for her right , like that was never going to be the happily ever after . Yeah , it seemed we didn't have any of it in book one so you needed to have a little bit of it in book two . It was nice to see her happy for a little bit , but it was very short-lived and it makes you feel bad . The ending was really , really sad . He feels as though you know he's doing this grand gesture , you know sending her away and saving her . And , bro , you should have talked to her . Yeah , this wasn't this really bad communication . They're dumb .

Ashley 42:57

I did not love the room it was . It was a three it . It wasn't the worst , it wasn't forced . You saw something growing , you know , in that love triangle space for a while , so something had to happen . It was just basic for me , the romance , it was the three yeah , jonathan I agree , it's basic .

Jonathan 43:16

There wasn't , uh , there wasn't a whole lot um going for me , except to say that I'm currently on team kaol . So with me deciding to be on team kaol , and some of that's because I think I think dorian's just kind of like this isn't there's , there's too much , there's too much difference between us , it's not gonna work out kind of thing . Not like , not like I want , I like pink and you like red . More like whatever opposite of pink would be , I don't know , but more like there's no way my father would ever allow this . This would just never logistically or , you know , socially or politically work out for us . So it would just be a fling . It might be spice later , I don't know . I think dorian's out . I'm gonna at least give it a 3.5 okay , what you think kelly .

Kelly 44:05

I'm so tired of the romance triangle bullshit so I just I don't . I just didn't find the romance very appealing . I'm tired of seeing the ooh , do I pick Dorian ? Ooh , do I pick Kale ?

Mari 44:16

Ooh do I pick Dorian ?

Kelly 44:17

Ooh , do I pick Kale ? Like the romance didn't do anything for me , I didn't think it was that great , so I gave it a two .

Mari 44:23

Yeah , I will say , the first time I read this book I'm just kind of at the same place I was with the first book . I'm just like , if there's romance supposed to be actually really like real , true romance happening in here , I am not feeling it .

Mari 44:43

It's going under my head or over my head or under the radar one or the other , but I'm getting none of it or the other but I'm getting none of it . So I did find it interesting in this read-through that I feel that Kaol was genuinely in love with the idea that he had of Selenia , who he thought Selenia was , who he thought Selenia would be for him . He never truly knew her , but I think he was in love with the idea of her this whole going off somewhere , having kids , living this provincial life situation . I think he was truly in love with the idea of it , but I don't think he ever truly knew Selena . I agree , I think they never talked .

Mari 45:36

I think if I had to pick a running gag on the whole , throne of Glass is , everyone underestimates Selena at all times and , yeah , if they would just talk , things would be different . I think that there's probably a three for romance for me , and I say that mainly because the idea of a tragic romance , so that little bubble of happiness that had to happen momentarily for Selena and Kale in order for the true tragedy of the betrayal to like hit so hard . And then also , if you look at it back like we defined it before , romance with , like the whole friend romance , the idea of , uh , nahemia and selena just being these bosom buddies , and then you know the last words they say to each other , being in anger , and then she's gone , and then you get like these , I don't know , it seemed like there were three or four chapters after she died where it was like this multiple keep doing impact over and over that SJM did of like hey , did you know ? Nahemia's dead , by the way , nahemia's dead , and it affects this , and it affects this and it affects this , and Selena having this mantra in her head of some of the last things that Nahimi ever said to her was you know , you're a coward , and how that guides her actions . So , yeah , I think it was a romantic in the terms of like a romantic tragedy , not in like romance .

Mari 47:10

Happily , ever after situation , situation . What do we think of the spice ?

Ashley 47:17

I mean I'm glad she got some . I hope it was good for her . Yeah , but she doesn't know any better either . You know what ?

Ashley 47:27

I mean like he was her first . So uh , kudos to you , girl . I'm glad you got , especially in the broom closet at work . You broke that man's meeting and he had to bail to go to the broom closet . So I mean you get a two for that . But like she was quick to turn on him without question , right , like he betrayed her trust and it got her friend killed and bam , you're out . Yeah , no that was like .

Kelly 47:56

It was like a two there's .

Ashley 47:57

There's not much to say about it it just wasn't the main focus of the book like you said it was . It was a . The theme of this book is catalysts right like

Romance and Relationships Analysis

Ashley 48:07

something to spark , you know , the movement of something else in a powerful way . Yeah , it's a two because it was there , right , but like it wasn't too detailed , it wasn't overly romantic , it wasn't overly spicy , it was borderline forced in the story , not like upon each other for clarity , I'd say only a two .

Mari 48:35

What did you think , Jonathan ?

Jonathan 48:37

Yeah , I agree a two . I didn't think it was . There was nothing that made me get super stoked on it , just may be , I don't know . Yeah , nothing crazy , that's all . Yeah , just may be yeah .

Kelly 48:55

Nothing crazy that's all .

Mari 48:56

Just a two Kelly . What'd you think ?

Kelly 48:57

I think the spice was basically non-existent , so I gave it a one .

Mari 49:04

Yeah , I'm like right there with you guys . I basically gave it a two , because I think I gave it a one last time because there was no spice and I guess technically there was . Like the little gossiping about the broom closet situation was kind of cute . So , yeah , I gave that a two overall for spice situation . Yeah it was just there yeah , yeah , exactly do we think . Is it a kissing book ? Why ?

Ashley 49:31

am I always surprised when this question ? Do we think is it a kissing book ? Why am I always surprised when this question comes up Every time you can go ?

Mari 49:39

last . You don't have to go first if you don't want to . You went first for everything else . Is this a ?

Ashley 49:42

kiss . I think this is a kissing book , but for different reasons . I think this is a kissing book Like . This is a kissing book for Kale . This is for her , you know , for Selena . This is a kissing book for Selena , for Nahemia , If that makes sense .

Mari 50:00

Yeah .

Ashley 50:01

Dorian . This is a kissing book for himself and his magic Um . I think , arguably , if Kale hadn't felt what he thought was intense love for Selena , you know , the story would just be over in this book , right ? He would have let her die . He wouldn't have protected her . I think , if you know Nehemia hadn't meant anything for Selena , you know she would have just continued on her merry way as is . She would have just continued on her merry way as is . So I think it's a kissing book , but for different reasons , not for a traditional like fated mates or happily ever after . I think it's kissing because it forces the story to go on .

Mari 50:45

Yeah .

Ashley 50:46

Especially for her as the main character . Otherwise , she just would have bounced right , yeah , and left them . Just would have bounced Right , yeah , and left them all to their doom . So I'm going to say yes , but not for the reasons that we usually think . Husband .

Jonathan 51:02

I didn't think it was a kissing book .

Ashley 51:05

Interesting .

Jonathan 51:07

I'll keep waiting for the next one .

Mari 51:09

Okay , I gotta say it the next one , okay .

Kelly 51:14

I gotta say it is not a kissing book , because Kale doesn't love her .

Mari 51:19

He betrayed her . That's not love .

Kelly 51:22

If there's any love whatsoever in this book , it's now that Selina is going to be doing things out of remorse and love for Nahemia .

Ashley 51:33

That makes it a kissing book that doesn't make does it , it's not .

Kelly 51:35

Is it romantic love though ?

Mari 51:38

I don't know . It depends on how you decide to define it .

Kelly 51:40

Yeah , I mean , really , if we're going to talk about the real romance in this book , I mean kale and dorian just need to go ahead and fuck .

Ashley 51:48

I mean I mean I . I think , though , that Kale feels like he sacrificed Selina's happiness for his own by sending her off at the end , he thinks he's protecting her . He thinks he's sending her somewhere safe , somewhere to be , you know , with people , if not her family to an extent , then to people who are familiar with her legacy .

Kelly 52:11

But he didn't realize that until after he made that decision Right . He didn't know that he was sending her there . He didn't put two and two together until after she was on the boat .

Ashley 52:24

Oh , I guess that's true , so he wasn't doing it , yeah .

Kelly 52:27

He was just a . He's just an asshole .

Ashley 52:29

He was just getting her out of town . Well , I mean he was just an asshole . He was just getting her out of town . Well , I mean he was still getting her out of a town to keep her safe , like that was his entire he had to , like he had to manage that process . He knew he couldn't talk the king into it . He had to make a deal with his dad to get her out of there . He had to pull a ticket . I don't know yeah .

Mari 52:45

I think , I think it goes back to what we said , that they need to talk , and I think that Kale is in love with the idea of Selina , the idea of this chivalry , this idea of this person that he can take care of , I was going to say , the idea of being a hero . Yeah , yes , yes , the idea of his own grandeur .

Ashley 53:03

Okay , then I take it back . It's not a kissing book . Yeah , he's more in love with the idea of love than he is with actually in love with the girl .

Kelly 53:14

Right , that's fair . Right , I reverse my answer . You're right . It's like , um , despite how much we may dislike neil gaiman , now , one of the lines from one of his sandman books was , you know , one of the sandman's , like assistants or whatever , telling him you know ? No , sir , I think you were far more in love with the idea of the girl and the love than you ever actually were in love .

Mari 53:31

Yeah , yeah , I think that's exactly it for Carol . I think he was in love with the idea of this fantasy that he had set up in his mind . But , all that being said , I think I would say that , yes , it's a kissing book , because I think that even the idea of love it affected the action , the plot . I think that even the idea of love it affected the action , the plot . So I think that if Selina had been anybody else who attacked the captain of the guard , she would have been thrown down in the dungeons and that would have been it . She would have been forgotten about , she would have not gotten out and gotten back into her own little private rooms with a bath and a servant .

Mari 54:09

I don't think that would have happened to anybody , but this person that he had what he thought was love for , and also the whole . You know Selina's love for Nehemia guiding her actions . Whether that's retribution , whether that's shame , whatever , but I think it's tied to the friendship , love aspect of it . So for me I would say this one's a kissing book . The first one was not by our definition , like by my definition of a kissing book anyways . So anything else anybody wants to say about it before we wrap it up , I'm very excited for book three on this one .

Kelly 54:43

Me too , and the world expansion . Yeah , I mean , I don't know . My interest in these books is pretty low now . Um , I think it's mostly because I have other things on my to read list that I would rather read .

Ashley 55:02

So I mean , I think arguably the second book of a long series like this is never anything really to write home about . It's got there . There has to be a stepping stone , you know , at some point it yeah it would be extreme for every book to just be , you know , balls to the walls . I feel like the middle books are three is book three , in your um opinion , better like , more exciting , like more happening , more people , more adventures , more love .

Mari 55:37

Here's my problem I read these books so fast that I have a hard time trying to remember what happens in what book . I was talking to Kelly earlier Before we reread the first book . I could have sworn that the first book ended with , like the scene where she is shown to be a fairy . I thought that's where the first book ended . So I was like , wait , I was rereading the first book , I'm like there's not enough chapters left for what I think is going to happen . So I'm not a good yeah , I'm not a good judge of that . I can tell you that there's more that is going to happen . Yes , but I don't remember specifically if it's in book three or not .

Ashley 56:14

To be honest , Book three has definitely started out a little bit slow . For me , without any spoilers , it started out slow but I think we're finally starting to get to some realness between her and this new character . Again , that catalyst , catalyst , right , something important needed to happen for them to figure out , you know , mutual ground and bond or something . So I'm excited to see this story develop from there . But I am listening to the audiobook , so that's taking some time . Cool , I can't listen to it at 4x speed like my husband .

Mari 56:45

Yeah , no , no way all right , anything else before I wrap it up that's all I got .

Ashley 56:52

You got anything husband ?

Jonathan 56:53

No , that's all I have Kelly , you good . Yeah .

Mari 56:56

All right . So thanks for listening to Of Swords and Soulmates . Before we go , make sure to check the show notes , rate , review and subscribe to us on your podcast app of choice . It helps others to find us . Follow us on Instagram at Of Swords and Soulmates . Check us out on our website of swords and soulmatescom , or on YouTube , tik TOK , facebook or Pinterest with the same username If you'd like to offer a suggestion for a future

Final Thoughts and Next Episode Preview

Mari 57:17

episode or just give us your opinion . Reach out to us on any of those options or email us If you want to read along with us as we prep for a new episode . Follow us on Goodreads at ofords and Soulmates book club , and we also have a Tome account same nickname Of Swords and Soulmates .

Mari 57:36

Before we announce what all we're going to get into for the next episode , I wanted to read a review that someone left us on Spotify . It was a while ago . I'm not great at pulling up these reviews and I apologize . The username was just anonymous so I don't know who left it , but they said that they love the literature , news and lively debate . Exclamation point .

Ashley 57:55

So very nice Anytime pal .

Mari 57:58

Yes .

Ashley 57:59

That's what we're here for , absolutely .

Mari 58:01

All right . So , last but not least , we hope you'll join us in two weeks when we have our next episode . We are not going to be reading something for next episode , we're going to be having a special guest interview , and you will find out who that is by following us on social media . Pay attention for the surprise . Bye , bye . Thank you for watching .