Of Swords and Soulmates
Is this a kissing book? Of Swords and Soulmates features two couples (and sometimes more), with varying reading preferences and experiences, as they read, listen, and sometimes watch romantasy stories and discuss plot, fantasy elements, romance, spice, theories, and more. Join us for our non-expert opinions as we discuss, argue, rave, rant, and hopefully entertain. We may just help you find your next reading obsession or at least contribute to that TBR list!
Of Swords and Soulmates
"Fourth Wing" - Power and Passion Tropes
What happens when the familiar meets the fantastical in Rebecca Yarros's "Fourth Wing"? Get ready to uncover whether the familiar tropes in her series soar or crash as we dissect the book's re-readability, Easter eggs, and world-building elements compared to the likes of Sarah J. Maas and Anne McCaffrey. Ever wondered how Violet, our protagonist, might navigate the deadly narrative risks reminiscent of other dystopian fantasy bold storytelling? Tune in as we speculate on the upcoming sequel, "Iron Flame," and what it might mean for her fate.
Relationships in fantasy sometimes tread murky waters, and we're not holding back. Zayden and Violet's bond raises intriguing debates about romance and the complexities of dragon-rider connections. We pull no punches examining the dynamics of consent, power, and inclusivity, and how these elements contribute to the rich, emotional tapestry of a story that intertwines fantasy with reality. How does this series balance spicy romance with heart-wrenching risks? Our take might surprise you.
Lastly, tackle the representation of sexual orientation within the book, as we question the portrayal of characters like Rhiannon and the trope of the hypersexual bisexual. Does the series normalize diverse orientations, or does it fall into cliché traps? We also share a lighthearted moment pondering fan theories, offering our listeners a dash of humor amidst our critical analysis. Dive into these topics with us for a compelling and thought-provoking discussion that combines laughter and insight, perfect for any fantasy enthusiast.
Links from the News Segment and Show (not all were discussed):
- Abigail Owen has teamed up with Lark and Owl Booksellers bookshop to offer signed deluxe editions of The Things Gods Break
- Multi author signing event: JANUARY FANTASY Talk and signing with Mai Corland (Four Ruined Realms), Hannah Nicole Maehrer (Apprentice to the Villain), and Abigail Owen (Games Gods Play)
- JANUARY 21 AT 7 PM at the Barnes & Noble Colonial Plaza 2418 E Colonial Drive Orlando, FL
- Ruby Dixon is releasing the sequel to By the Horns, a sequel to Bull Moon Rising on 09/02/25
- T kingfisher is releasing a new fairy tale retelling book this year - Hemlock & Silver
- It is a dark reimagining of Snow White, releases 8/19/25
- Amazon Link
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Views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the participants. The hosts make no claim to be literary experts and their opinions are exactly that opinions. All creative works discussed or reviewed are the intellectual property of the creators of said stories and is being used under the Fair Use Doctrine.
Mari:Hello and welcome to Of Swords and Soulmates, a podcast where we read, watch and discuss romanticist stories. I'm one of your hosts, mari, and with me I have Kelly.
Kelly:Hey everyone, it's Kelly and we have Ashley.
Ashley:Hey guys, it's Ashley. We also have Jonathan. What's good, it's JP. I'm feeling a's Ashley.
Jonathan:We also have Jonathan. What's good, it's JP. I'm feeling a little better. I'm not over the top, but like kind of in the middle. All good, how's everybody doing?
Mari:Good, good, good good.
Jonathan:Is this our first time back since the new year?
Mari:Well, we've got the review episode we did that came out on the second, but this is our first recording in the new year.
Jonathan:Yeah, Right, happy New Year, yeah.
Mari:Happy New Year. And just to put this in context, today we're going to be discussing Fourth Wing. It is before Onyx Storm comes out. We are going to be going over Fourth Wing and focusing on Fourth Wing, but there will be spoilers for Iron Flame as well. Yeah, you can't trust us. Yeah.
Ashley:Going over Fourth Wing and focusing on Fourth.
Mari:Wing, but there will be spoilers for Iron Flame as well. Yeah, you can't trust us. Yeah, we can't trust us. So we're going to be discussing Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarrows, but, as always, we're going to go to the news first. First thing on the news is that well, I think we've talked about it no-transcript. You can put, like, have her request a message in there or have it, you know, sent signed to you specifically. So that was pretty cool absolutely, absolutely.
Jonathan:She also has on um on her instagram feed through the end of the month, and so I know this one her instagram feed, through the end of the month, and so I know this one will pop out towards the end of the month. But, uh, on in in this if you like, if you get it in under the wire, there is a giveaway she's doing for the games gods play audio book, like something maybe it's a special audio.
Jonathan:It's the audio book play from audiobookscom. So yeah, so it's on her instagram page and that contest draw goes through the 31st. I just stumbled on it today. It's like five, five winners. I don't know how, how many fans she has. It's like it'd be interesting because it's like the odds maybe align.
Mari:Yeah, play the odds. It was a good series. I think most of us for the most part enjoyed it.
Jonathan:I did.
Mari:Yeah, me too. The other thing I had, which is something you guys are going to be going to, is the author signing event at the Barnes Noble Colonial Plaza in Orlando on the 21st right.
Ashley:Yeah.
Mari:We'll be there. Yeah, so it's going to be Mike Cortland, who wrote Four Ruined Realms, hannah Nicole Meyer, who wrote Apprentice to the Villain, and Abigail Owens, who wrote Games God's Play. So we're looking forward to hearing what you guys think about that event afterwards.
Ashley:What is that face you're making?
Jonathan:It says 7 pm.
Ashley:What's at 7 pm.
Jonathan:That event.
Ashley:What event.
Jonathan:That author signing event.
Ashley:No, it's not.
Jonathan:That's what it says on the seer sheet.
Mari:That's what the Instagram post said.
Jonathan:That presents a conflict, dear.
Ashley:I didn't know. It was that evening. We took the day off.
Jonathan:We definitely took the day off, but we also, in slightly bookish news. We also purchased tickets to see Josh Gad talk about his new book in Orlando at 7 pm. Oh, in Gad we Trust, oh.
Mari:Looks like we have to to make some choices yeah, for sure oh, that didn't register at all.
Mari:The other thing I had is that Ruby Dixon is releasing a sequel to A Bull Moon Rising and it's called by the Horns. It's coming out September 2nd of this year and it's Minotaur and a Reluctant Necromancer, which sounded interesting. I donaur and a Reluctant Necromancer, which sounded interesting, I don't know, maybe Reluctant Necromancer, maybe Necromancer in Denial I don't know how to describe it, but it seemed like an interesting concept. So the first one was a fun read. I think it's a fun world she's created, so I'm glad there's a sequel in it. So I have no idea if any of the characters from the first one are going to weave into it, but it's the same institution that the first one is set in.
Mari:Interesting, yeah I'm gonna have to read that first one soon the last bit of news I have is that t kingfisher, who we've talked about a lot I know I like her, um, she wrote nettle and bone and the sorceress comes to call and the Saints of Steel series. She's releasing a new. She's releasing two books this year. One is a horror book but the other one is a fairy tale retelling of Snow White. It's called Hemlock and Silver and it's coming out August 19th of this year. It's described as a dark reimagining of Snow White.
Jonathan:Oh, mm-hmm, snow White's dark to begin with, isn't it?
Mari:I think so.
Jonathan:Darker, yeah, interesting.
Mari:All right, so we're doing something a little different. Well, actually, let me backtrack. Does anybody else have any news they want to add?
Jonathan:I don't have any additional news. What's that? Look on your face.
Ashley:Ash, because everything they sent me and everything I sent you does say 7pm.
Jonathan:I don't know why it didn't register in all fairness, it does say 10am to pick up your wristbands maybe that's why 7pm never.
Ashley:I'm sorry I can't.
Mari:I'm trying to let this go we are changing up the format a little bit. Instead of having like a non-spoiler section and then breaking it up and then going into spoiler section, we're just going to go straight into spoilery section. Diverted yeah. So, kelly, if you would do the spiel please.
Kelly:So from this point forward, dear listeners, we will be discussing spoilers. There will be no spoiler-free discussion of this book at any point.
Mari:And additionally there will be some spoilers for Iron Flame as well.
Kelly:Right, we'll do our best not to spoil something for Iron Flame, but since we've all read the second book, it's going to affect what we talk about.
Mari:It all bleeds together. It really does yeah.
Ashley:Sorry guys.
Mari:No, I agree.
Ashley:I agree. Oh no, I was apologizing to our audience. In theory, we should be adulting.
Jonathan:Yeah, no.
Ashley:So listen, I know that.
Ashley:Mari gets it and I know Jonathan gets it, and if Kelly hasn't been sucked into this world yet, then so sorry to you too. But arguably I think this um series has kind of had us in a small chokehold for the oh you know what, going on two years now. This year will be two years since the original release. So we have been, we have been micro analyzing to a point to where I don't generally like that part. You know I'm not trying to find the Easter eggs, I wouldn't be surprised. But I think we've all become private investigators to a certain degree and we are trying to figure this shit out. I don't know who's close to it.
Mari:Yeah, yeah, I mean it's we're all misfiring on it.
Jonathan:Whatever we think we know I'm sure we don't.
Mari:Yeah, yeah, it'll be interesting. It'll be interesting seeing what potential theories are right or wrong. Yeah, I first read it. I read it the first time back in July of 2023. Okay, so, yeah, we're reading it because the third book comes out this month. So Empyrean Series Fever exists, it's a thing. Let me read the synopsis. It was published on May 2023. Let me read the synopsis and then we'll get into a discussion. Sound good.
Jonathan:Mm-hmm.
Mari:So 20-year-old Violet Sorengel was supposed to enter the Scribe Quadrant, living a quiet life among books and history. Now the commanding general, also known as her toughest talons mother, has ordered Violet to join the hundreds of candidates striving to become the elite of Navarre dragon riders. But when you're smaller than everyone else and your body is brittle, death is only a heartbeat away. Because dragons don't bond to fragile humans, they incinerate them. With fewer dragons willing to bond than cadets, most would kill Violet to better their own chances of success. They incinerate them can give her just to see the next sunrise. Yet with every day that passes, the war outside grows more deadly. The kingdom's protective wards are failing and the death toll continues to rise. Even worse. Violet begins to suspect leadership is hiding a terrible secret. Friends, enemies, lovers everyone at Basquiat War College has an agenda, because once you enter there are only two ways out Graduate or die.
Mari:I love it oh so such a good story overall, like overall rating. What you thought as far as overall rating? How many stars you?
Jonathan:get, we're gonna go first, or you have a batting order in mind I can go first.
Mari:Yeah, so for me, honestly, the first time I read this, it was a three-star read for me. When I read it, I had heard amazing things about it. This is the best thing out there. This is better than ACOTAR. This is whatever. I heard, like it was that. Or I heard this is total trash, this is the worst thing out there. And so it was like, well, obviously it cannot be both of these things. So I was intrigued and when I read itading, the first book, like I did recently, I think the sequel adds things, adds a layer of depth and enjoyment to the first book, so I bumped it up to four stars for me.
Jonathan:Nice Ash.
Ashley:This book is a five for me and I think I learned what a five is from Mari. This book is a five for me and I think I learned what a five is from Mari, and I think I was. I'm very easy to give a four star read to, and I think Mari's you know like prime reasoning for a five is something that a book that you will reread, and so I think that alone is what makes it a five. I've I don't think I've read this book a thousand times, but it's probably a third or fourth reread of some kind, because I listened to the audiobook, I tried the dramatization. I don't know that I've made it through either of them, but I'm very content to have read this more than once. This isn't the most original writing, this isn't, um, the most astounding writing, and I don't think it surpasses the akatar series right, not akatar itself, as we've we have established that, but I am entertained by rebecca yaros and fourth wing.
Ashley:Even before iron flame, I was hooked and I think I was probably the primary reason that you even considered reading it yourself marie yeah so, um, again, it's maybe not the most original writing.
Ashley:It's probably you know storylines in certain veins that we've heard somewhere else before. There's a lot of you of chatter out there that her ideas aren't original at all, but man, am I entertained and I love this book. It's not complicated, it's not challenging, but it is interesting and I think it pulls you back in when you start to realize those Easter eggs that come to fruition in book two and it makes you want to finish it and for me that's a five-star read.
Jonathan:I like it, I like him. Yeah, I'm going to say it was a. For me it was a five-star read as well. So I think with the audio version and originally I, I kind of went through it and then went through iron flame as well, but then, wanting to reread it, it triggered the immersive read which then really lit, lit that fire for me. So I think previously I may have thought of it more of a, of like a four, but with the, with the immersive reading process, like this is a, this is, this is a five for me. It just makes me want to keep hunting in this book for different clues.
Kelly:Yeah.
Jonathan:And that's intriguing to me and I don't have a book or a series that makes me feel that way. I think the closest to it for me is, uh, games gods play, trying to unravel it or figure it out. But it, the games gods play, kind of feels light comparatively and uh, I'm not sure I'm going to give that guitar a chance. I just think that a series is trash based on the first book. I don't want to.
Ashley:I don't think you can judge a series based on the first book. Sure can, I just did. And I don't think Rebecca has that same weight to it in that sense. I think she's cracking jokes and I think there are very much lighthearted things. I think she gets serious and she gets deep and then comes back full circle and I don't necessarily know that we really get all of that with Sarah J Maas, so I can see where he's coming from.
Jonathan:It's the only book that I've had an emotional reaction to so far. That's fair, yeah, where he's coming from.
Ashley:It's the only book that I've had an emotional reaction to so far. Yeah, that's fair yeah, so but you also haven't read book two or three of akatar exactly to change your perspective. But you know, to each their own let's see what kelly has to say about it?
Kelly:sorry, I gave this book three stars. I think that it did a couple of interesting things, but in the end this book relied heavily on common romance tropes, common fantasy tropes, and it just served up those tropes and delivered them, and there was a lot of opportunities, I think, that were wasted.
Jonathan:That's more generous than I thought you were going to say. Kelly, I'm like super duper candid. I thought you were going to go with a two. I was prepared for a two.
Kelly:I think the biggest problem that when you start doing a book that involves dragon writing is you run into comparing it to other books where this happened, whether it's the perennial dragon writers of Pern, or if it's lesser known books that involve dragon writing. So there's always going to be an element where it feels like the author borrowed some of that from those other authors and that's fine. I mean these things, you know, writing dragons isn't like it's necessarily copyrighted to one author or anything but you have. You'd end up drawing the comparison of well, did the other author, like Anne McCaffrey, did she do it better? And in this case I would say yes, anne McCaffrey built a better world with her dragon riders of Pern. The characters were more solid, more well-developed.
Kelly:The biggest issue I had with this book, I think, is that it just relies so heavily on the typical tropes. Immediately, right off the bat, we have the magical girl who's being forced into doing something and oh wow, it turns out she's actually really good at it, even though she didn't train at all. And these other people that were at the dragon riding school were training their whole lives. And you add on to the fact that she had essentially what is you know Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, more or less. Yeah, there were magical healers and stuff, but she wasn't like taking advantage of the magical healers while she was at the school.
Mari:Too much character in addition to her just being very like, stubborn about sticking with things and about pointing out that, like as a as a person who lives with a chronic disease, she knows how to endure and how to like function an invisible, one which?
Mari:I mean, there's that's not. Yeah, that's not something to scoff at, like there is something to be said for when you have that level of um resilience that you've just had to have to develop. But more so than that to me, was her, was her brain, like a lot of what she got through was because she outsmarted people, not because she was.
Kelly:I mean I appreciated she was poisoning some of the people in order to have the edge and the hand to hand combat stuff. And that was a clever thing and that was a cool thing that the author did with the character I think she's definitely very average, but I think I think you're right.
Ashley:I think her smarts and her ability to you know get out of some things or work her way through some things is definitely what saved her ass more than half of the time. Her, her pain tolerance is what got her across parapet right her her selflessness, I think, is what got her across parapet say more well, she gives her boot to re what does that have to do with her getting across parapet?
Jonathan:well, I just think that she, I don't think that uh, god's granted her favor, like maybe we haven't gotten the book six years no proof to that one um, like zayden could have yeeted her off right away it doesn't have anything to do with what she did no, exactly, she's selfless. She gave it to re that's.
Mari:That's not what got her wasn't her books well, no, she didn't have any yeah I mean, maybe it partially could have been her books, it was her, her way of just. I mean, even though initially when I first read the book I was like this is a really clunky way of doing exposition, but the character itself, like her whole, like studying and repeating stuff to herself to like calm herself down, I mean, that was partially I'm sorry, I meant like the physical books, because she left them behind.
Jonathan:No, it's just that I hear what you're saying. I really do. I forgot about that. But yeah, she does. When she gets stressed out and to calm herself she centers herself by repeating she, she stims I mean that was a stim.
Ashley:Yeah, for sure I. I get where kelly's coming from, where she's the least likely to succeed, and here she is. But I think she, they, they pay attention to that and she acknowledges that very much along the way. Um, and I think that's what makes it endearing. I mean, obviously there's no story then if she doesn't survive. So there, she has to survive. But right.
Kelly:I mean I think she's not gonna die in the gauntlet because she's the main character. I mean she has main character protection. That's the thing. You don't feel scared for her or anything like that during that yeah, I think it's like.
Kelly:The majority of stories, though, are main character protection you can create a sense of concern in a series even if the main character is never in danger, and so like. The perfect example of that is the show andor you. You know he is going to survive. He's not going to die in any of those episodes because you know he makes it to Rogue One, so there's no, ever any fear that he's going to die. So instead, all of the fear is placed on the secondary characters around him.
Ashley:So does that ruin the story for you, though, in that instance?
Kelly:That doesn't ruin the story for me, but you don't have any fear that she's going to fail the gauntlet or that she's going to fall to her death or anything like that, because you know she's the main character.
Mari:To be honest, when I read it I didn't necessarily have fear that. I didn't think she was going to die, because I didn't think that they would do that in this book, but I wasn't sure she was going to make it. I was like, well, maybe she fails out and does go to the scribe corner or something. Maybe that's what the rest of the story is.
Kelly:Right, and that's what made Game of Thrones, the Game of Thrones books, so crazy is because you were scared for any character, because George RR Martin didn't write in a first-person point of view and since you jumped from character to character, a character could die immediately, so that generated a lot of concern you had as a reader that this character that you got attached to reading from their point of view could die, just like Ned Stark died so quickly.
Ashley:That was dramatic. Yeah, I was a Ned Stark fan girl from the get-go when that happened.
Mari:I almost quit. That was traumatic. Yeah, I was a Ned Stark fan girl from the get-go and I watched the first. Yeah, yeah, I watched the TV show first before I read the books and I was like what, that's traumatic. What do you mean? He's dead. I will say what Spoilers for like Game of Thrones, however old that book is.
Ashley:Well, I will say as the resident podcaster that has read more rebecca yaros than anyone else. She is not, yes, afraid to kill off a primary character. So we are not safe just because violet has survived book one and two, and not for nothing. Veronica roth I don't know, marie, if you've ever read her the divergence series spoiler that doesn't end well for the primary first person character so I, I, because this is a series, I think it's a.
Jonathan:It's important to note that, um, she has, like it's essentially kind of they kind of have to make it so far in into the series. But I would say this kelly, the very first sentence of the book puts her life at risk. The following text has been faithfully transcribed from navarria to the modern language by jessenia neilworth this entire series is a trans, is a transcription, uh, from a third party. So, even though this is a, it's maybe reads in the perspective of violet, it's a transcription no, no, finish.
Ashley:What is it?
Jonathan:tell us what it says, because not everybody caught that in the first read all events are true and the names have been preserved to honor the courage of those fallen. May their their souls be commended to Malik. So I think we put her life at risk in the very first sentences of this book, before we even reached the words chapter and one.
Ashley:Do we have more ratings? Are we going full rating system?
Mari:Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do we think of the fantasy world building of it? Who went first last time?
Ashley:Murray did Murray? Oh, I did. We're going to get it together eventually.
Mari:Fantasy world building. I'm going to say three and a half for this particular book, for Fourth Wing. I feel like the world is going to expand out dramatically in the following books. I think it's going to be like a throne of glass situation, where the world starts very small and then she learns everything. I think you know Violet was very smart and very good at the knowledge that she had access to and then she's going to be learning, as it goes on and on, and us with her, what the world was really like in history that actually happened and etc. Like all that kind of stuff.
Mari:The world building is not unique, it's not groundbreaking, but that's not something I necessarily ding for. I don't mind like a retelling. I don't mind using tropes. I think they're good shorthands. You can move on to other things. I like that the dragons have personalities and are fully fledged characters and that there's the mind speak thing. I think that the main problem I had with the world building in fourth wing is it's a problem that a lot of people had where it's like there's supposedly this war going on, you supposedly need all these people and yet you let like I don't know 60% of the people who are trying to be in this corridor and die. Surely they could do something. Surely they could, like, cook the food for the army or, like you know, somebody's got to wash dishes and do laundry, like. Surely there's a better use for all these people that you let die in the writer's quadrant than just are you?
Mari:talking about the people who like attempt to get into the writer's quadrant and just um, yeah, and they'll make it yeah, starting from the get-go, I mean starting from, like the parapet, like put a net under that thing, have those people do anything else. There have got to be things in this world that need to be done, that not everyone has to be a superstar, scribe or quadrant or healer, for you know, writer or healer, for Surely there's other jobs in this world and in this war.
Jonathan:Dylan was just trying to make a better life for himself and his fiance and I hope she moved.
Mari:Dylan was just trying to make a better life for himself and his fiance and I hope she moved. Oh my God. As soon as that happened, I'm like is this a George RR Martin situation? What am I?
Jonathan:getting into. I think that speaks to Rebecca's writing style where, like you know, you got this moment, this endearing moment of him saying goodbye to his fiance and everything was going to be great, and he introduces himself to the main character and then, like within that chapter, he bye dylan.
Mari:Yeah, bye dylan, but like jack barlow, who fucking psychopath eating tried to, or sociopath, I've tried to kill like people on the parapet. Yeah, we're gonna welcome you in. We're gonna potentially give you the most powerful weapon we have a dragon.
Jonathan:Come on in. Part of that is yeah, that's who Jack fucking Barlow is. He's going to eat some people off, but also they're not giving him anything. He has to earn it.
Mari:They're giving him the opportunity to earn it.
Jonathan:You don't need to cross that parapet to be respected by to become a writer.
Ashley:That is not for this book, sir.
Jonathan:What? At no point in this book does it say that you have to cross the parapet to become a writer?
Ashley:this is so. This ties into some iron flame theories and I wonder if we should just have a section of this recording for theories. But there there is argument that in iron flame alludes to the concept of becoming a rider without going through bezgayev oh yeah, well, because the the dragon's original breeding ground was, like zayden's, uh, right home.
Jonathan:So if that was the original breeding ground, they could I mean, they could be wild dragons so when I say that it's, it's meant in that context that there's a lot that's not said, and so it's we haven't expanded our and there's not a definitive, like you have to do x, y and z.
Jonathan:It's a yes. The crossing the parapet proves loyalty and strength and honor amongst them. Surviving the gauntlet proves worthiness to the dragons, uh, the presentation, etc. And then threshing is who's willing to to bond with you I don't know that the god, but you don't, and no point is it a requirement? And this is, and here's the requirement of the. It's not up to, yeah, it's not up to the college yeah to decide if somebody can bond. We find that out pretty quickly no, but it's the opportunity no, how are you?
Ashley:going to get to threshing without going through the college? Yeah, if you're not there to meet the dragon.
Mari:You're not going to bond with the dragon.
Jonathan:If you can get into the Vale and find a dragon that's willing to bond you.
Ashley:I think logistically you can't get to the Vale without going through the grounds of Beskide.
Jonathan:They don't say where it is. It's just there.
Mari:It's protecting my wards yeah, so that that's a lot of hype so my rating is a three on fantasy world building because a world that did not make sense to me and I don't tend to be one that picks apart, like the details of that very much and I'm just like how are you at so, so desperate for people and for writers and for people to fight in this war and yet you let so many just die? I can understand there being a strict process, like if you don't meet these criteria you're not the lead of the elite, of the elite, but that doesn't mean you you have to die, like this is game of thrones you win or you die I don't know that the war that they are teaching these kids is what they ultimately say that it is.
Ashley:Yeah, so I agree the loss of life is worth it to them because it limits what they have to share, if that makes sense, or what they have to expose Right.
Mari:Right, like I fully think that there are, because of how I feel with the reread. I fully think that as more and more books come out, my opinion of the first book will change and the earlier books will change. I think that it's going to build on it and change Easter eggs. I fully agree with that.
Ashley:But as of right now, I'm going to say three and a half, having been super exposed to other you know, major dragon lore, like I've not read george. I love george in theory, but I can't read the book. The books were just, it was too much. I didn't get past, like the first two chapters, um, but I had, you know, an affinity for game of thrones, the television series, and I've not read the dragons of perern at all. I read Aragon and I was obsessed with that, but again, that was such a massive, it was so heavy. Yeah, I keep, you know, reverting to that word, um, and I I think what again is so great about fourth wing was that it, it wasn't homework, right, like it wasn't, it wasn't a chore to read it was just enjoyable and it was light enough to draw you in.
Ashley:It was interesting enough to keep you there, and I do think she's expanding and I think that's just part of storytelling, right. You start small and things get bigger and bigger and bigger. The killing obviously was not my favorite. She killed a lot of people in book one and you know, to Kelly's point, I was never afraid for Violet's life, but there are other side characters that you get really attached to. So I would say a three and a half for the world building in fourth wing. It wasn't bad enough to deter me from wanting more. Could it have been better? Man, maybe I just don't know that the world building is necessarily her focus. I think the people are her focus, right.
Jonathan:I think she did a fantastic job of world building, quickly Giving me a data dump of information to put together how these things work, the dens of dragons you get, how you get, how you gain magic, the different, uh, the different quadrants that you could end up in within that, how, like the hierarchy and explanation of the codex and like what you kind of like the foundational rules. I think that she, when she did it very quickly, she did it through. A lot of that was done through death and understanding their customs. A lot of customs are built on just in our normal society are built on death and what we do in that moment. So I think that she did a great job of building that world for me and for that I'd say I'd give it a five. Kelly, what did you think of the world building?
Kelly:Overall, I would say the world building was a two. There were just so many problems with the way things were established, in addition to it just falling into a lot of the same fantasy tropes and some of which we've already talked about. But the biggest issue I had with a lot of the same fantasy tropes and some of which we've already talked about, but the biggest issue I had with a lot of it is and Mari's already talked about how expendable they made these riders, which, okay, I can get past the the initial crossing the parapet, let him die, and then everything up until they're bonded, maybe with the dragons. But once they're bonded with the dragons, why the fuck would you put them in any situation where they have a reasonable chance of dying during training? At that point they become way more valuable because of the bond to the dragon. But it's okay, we have several of them die. You know it seems like every day. No big deal, but it is a big deal. That's a huge deal. And, yeah, there's this whole. Oh well, maybe the dragon will bond with one of the unbonded people who's still here at the school or whatever.
Kelly:Okay, that's one way of getting around that problem, but I can't help but thinking this is like pilots In the military. When you train pilots up until the point where they get past the initial pilot training school, the military doesn't really go out of the way to do anything special to make sure they don't get hurt, other than the standard stuff they would do anybody. But once pilots get to the point that they're ready to start training and type of aircraft and stuff like that, they are incredibly valuable, way more valuable than the machine they're flying. And so this book is treating the riders as if they are completely expendable. They make a big deal about how they get this signet and they can become powerful and this and that.
Kelly:But the author's point of view is that these writers are completely and 100% expendable. And maybe that's what they're going for, because we're going for something that's like a dystopian setting. I mean, this is like basically a dystopian fantasy novel because it has all the hallmarks of the dystopian book. But I just don't see how you would make these writers so expendable while they're at school. I just that is so crazy of a thing. That is just way, does not make any sense whatsoever that you make them so expendable after they have bonded with dragons, in particular once they get past the first year and they're still dying left and right in their second and third years. That's just ridiculous. That's not how you win a war.
Ashley:I don't know that they're trying to win a war.
Jonathan:Well, I would say, I think, if I can shift your perspective slightly, don't look at it as the cadets flying a plane. Switch those roles. The dragons are the important piece of this puzzle and they're. The cadets are what they are riders. They are not pilots. They do not steer, they are not in control, they are not the powerful beings. The dragons are selecting a tool to help the dragons survive and advance.
Ashley:Oh, look at you.
Jonathan:That's deep, that's all that matters. Well, it's the Empyrean series, it's the dragon series. It has nothing to do with the riders, so it's not about the dragons. Don't care. Dragons are the most powerful magical creatures in this world, and so they're just. If they drop their knife or their knife breaks. Just gonna you just pick up another one, but they don't, that's all the riders are.
Kelly:They don't, because plenty it says in there that plenty of dragons won't survive the death of their bonded rider either right, because wasn't there this thing where, like, the more times they bond, like the deeper the bond is?
Mari:so eventually it gets to where such a such a deep bond that the dragon dies too and I have not gotten back into iron flame in a little while.
Ashley:I don't necessarily think that a majority of dragons are passing from the loss of their riders, and we see that in iron flame with tarn, arguably as old as he is, which is not necessarily as old as a majority of the rest of the dragons, but as old as he is and as many times as he's bonded. When his last rider died he didn't show his face for five years. He literally only showed up. We find out in fourth wing because of the golden one right, it was not his intention, he was living his single dad days over there.
Kelly:Karn also says in Iron Flame and I don't think this is too much of a spoiler he tells Violet that if she dies, he will die. Yes, but that's rare. That's rare, I don't know that that's so rare because it sounds like from what I've read that that is a possibility that happened because they make a big deal of telling riders, telling the dragons choose to live.
Ashley:Yeah, I think I don't know about rarity. I will, but I don't think it's common either, especially in those early days of the bond. Those first few months, I think.
Kelly:Even if it's not common, why would you risk it?
Ashley:Why would you risk it Because they're expendable.
Kelly:Especially in the second and third years, once the bond is stronger, why would you risk it? Why would you risk it, especially, especially in the second and third years? Once the bond is stronger, why would you risk it?
Ashley:so which risk is it, though, that?
Jonathan:hold on. I just want to tag in here it's not, it's you. You can't just bond and then when somebody dies, the dragon dies. That's not how that works. It's a deep, deep. So you touched on it earlier. The more times you bond, the more the deeper it goes. So when Taryn, what Taryn says to her is you're, you're, you're, you are my, you're not my next rider, you are my last rider. And Taryn is one of the oldest dragons in existence at the time. Taryn is over 100. He's second in age behind Kota. Terran has bonded I don't know how many riders, and that's why, and this bond is going to be his last bond. But for dragons that have lesser bonds, who are younger, they can, and those bonds aren't deep. They lose a rider, rider.
Ashley:They don't care, it's just, it is what it is I mean, I don't know that we know enough to make all of these statements, but again I it's not the same way for the dragon as it is for the rider, and I think jonathan's point of the human being, the tool creating a human, while it takes time 20 years to a dragon, is nothing Right. There are more humans than there are dragons, I think, and they're looking for the epitome.
Kelly:Let's look at it this way While there is some and I agree with Jonathan the dragons are also more of the weapon. But let's look at it this way Some of these riders, what the power they have differs and it's not always the same, even if it's the same dragon. Like you know, you bond with this dragon and then you know the next person who bonds with them doesn't have the same power.
Ashley:Okay, Cause it all depends on the rider.
Kelly:So you get somebody like Dane, who we may hate for a lot of reasons, but he has an incredibly important power right? Why would you risk him getting killed? Why would you put him in the school? Why would you have the school set up so there's a chance he dies, when that gift is incredibly important?
Jonathan:I would argue that they don't, though Zayden's power is incredibly important. Who's it important to?
Kelly:To the people in the war.
Jonathan:Correct, correct, correct. Now, kelly's right. It's important to the people in the war. The dragons are the hierarchy. Dragons are at the top. Human beings are a tool for the dragons to use. Dane's power doesn't matter to them, they're using the humans for survival purposes well, I think you're diving into politics then too, because what's?
Ashley:important to the well. What's important to the humans isn't necessarily what's important to the dragons. What does dane's dragon care about?
Jonathan:dane signet correct it has nothing to do. That's what I'm saying the only thing dane's dragon did was offer open the channel for magic to flow through once. Once he was like, hey, alright, this guy's not a piece of shit, I'm going to let some magic flow through. And whatever Dane is at his core, whatever he's seeking at his core, that's how the magic comes out, and it manifests, as Dane could most benefit from at that point, what he could use it for.
Kelly:It doesn't't but from the human perspective, that power is incredibly important and incredibly useful. So why would the humans running the school put those kind of powers at risk? And, as far as the dragons, not caring about the powers, and I would say once, violet's power came into being and important. How important violet's power is, why would you put her at risk?
Ashley:I think they're trying to break her. I think we're. You know, they feel threatened by her.
Kelly:No, no, I think the humans are trying to break her. But if the dragons are the ones in control, why the fuck would they let her go back to that school? Why would Tarn let her go back to that school? Because her power is incredibly important and incredibly useful in the overall effort of the dragons and the humans why would you put her in human keeper?
Jonathan:anyway it doesn't.
Kelly:They made it a point several times saying dragons don't answer to humans. So if the dragons are the ones that are in control and they don't care about the powers for the most part but violet's power is obviously very important to the dragons again, why would you put them at risk? That's why the thing, the whole thing, doesn't make any sense. From that point of view, the whole, the whole thing about how easily and quickly they kill people at that school makes no sense other than for it to be a plot device for the dystopian nature of the book, to make sure it's like a battle royale, you know game of the fear tactic right, it's a battle, it's the battle royale hunger thing, and that's what the author is using Because it makes no sense for the story or the world.
Ashley:We have more ratings.
Jonathan:I was just like what does the cover look like?
Ashley:This is a 30, 40 minute conversation of world building tangents. So I'm just I feel bad for Kelly's editing.
Kelly:No, I mean it's pretty straightforward. Jonathan said the world building was the best ever. Ashley and Mari were like meh, it was okay and I was like it sucked.
Mari:Way to summarize Absolutely Okay. So onto romance. For me, if I had to do it just based off of Zayden and Violet's romance, it'd probably be like a 3. Her father, but also with the siblings is very sweet. It's also very much a necessity when you have that kind of a mother. So between that and between Violet's relationship with the people who become her friends, I would bump.
Ashley:it's such a juvenile relationship in the sense that neither of them have had exposure to what a healthy relationship actually looks like, and I think it's very high school-y right to begin with.
Ashley:I think they have these very intense, very powerful feelings for one another, which is amplified by the mated bond between Sagail and Taryn, but I still think it's interdependent for themselves as well. There's so much growing that has to happen for them both as individuals to be a respectable relationship. But it doesn't mean that I dislike their relationship. I just think it's a lot of whining, honestly. But all of that said, I think the relationships and the romance of those relationships that exist in this book are very well done. I think Rebecca does a decent job of normalizing relationships, which I thought was impressive.
Ashley:And, like you said, while I think Violet has a devotion to her blood family, I think the family that she's making could be more important than that and I think we see that exponentially more in Iron Flame. I think it's a four considering all of those factors. If we had to dumb it down to just Violet and Zayden, because of the juvenile high school back and forth, that's probably more like a three. I just think it's a very intense bond between them. I do think it's real, for you know the purpose of of this series and I think, when all is said and done, we'll see something that's very, very lovable about it, and we're just not there yet.
Ashley:But it's not because the writing sucked or the romance writing sucked, or because it's unbelievable or unoriginal or anything of that nature. I just think it's what it's meant to be for this book. So I would say a three just for Violet and Zayden, but a four for all relationships involved, especially the mother-daughter relationship at the end of Iron Flame.
Jonathan:I think there's just so much.
Ashley:we don't know yeah.
Jonathan:Interesting, I'm going to give it a three overall. I think what happened happened late in the story and that's why I gave the world building such high marks is because it was the majority of the story and then the sexy time came later. But this curveball, this whole wrench in the machine here is we talk about assault. I think that burden lies with Zayden. Assault. I think this, that burden lies with zayden and his. I think it starts with. I think I think the, the taking advantage of another person on the sexual front, is that that lies with zayden, that's his to bear, he. He had an advantage, as as we find out later in Iron Flame, coupled with the emotional ties to the dragons and their bonds, their mating bond, and he used that to his advantage and he allowed actions to take place and foster a plan for those things and also not to take place.
Jonathan:In his defense, he it's still stop something he does, stop some things, but he took advantage in that situation and that I would classify as assault. I don't think that our leather clad shadow daddy is clean. Uh, it should be clear of all charges, it doesn't, no? Plus, there's a family history in there that involves um sexual servitude allegedly no, not allegedly. It's in the books servitude the contract, it's a contract that feels intense it isn't the whole.
Jonathan:Yeah, contract, fucking contract is intense servitude is intense yeah contract is business so, rather than that allowing, so that, uh, I would say, would dictate my, that drags the marks down. What brings the marks up is that rihanna, the body count is high and it's, and she does not give a shit if you're a boy, girl, no fucks given. I think it's just Riddick. Yeah, I don't care. Yeah, I think that's.
Ashley:That's what I'm saying. I thought there was some representation. Yeah, it not thrown in anybody's face Like it was polite, it was cool.
Jonathan:Wasn't she with R? She was with Sawyer. She was with Sawyer. She was with Tara. Did Tara lose her life? I think so. I think she's dead, but yeah, so I think I'd like to. If we're following somebody's love story or passion story around, for me it's Rihanna. I want Rihanna's story, and then later on, I think there's a cutesy kind of comfy with is it Riddick and Yesenia?
Ashley:Is it Riddick or Sawyer?
Jonathan:It might be who loses. It was Sawyer I don't know. Sawyer it was Sawyer, sawyer and Yesenia. It's fresh, as firmly I think, that vibe, that pass of the vibe check. Overall the story has hints and treasures of spider web of love the spider web of love but it also has the these dangerous elements of that that are traps and I think that we shouldn't lose sight of no one said that all love was healthy, sir. Yeah, and that's yeah, I agree, I love you.
Ashley:Sorry.
Kelly:Kelly what'd you think? I think that Zayden and Violet's relationship is a dumpster fire and it's an abusive relationship. It's a completely unhealthy. It's a codependent relationship and it's terrible. And it's the same trope we always see the girls falls for the hot broody, you know, bad boy. It's just the trope of this genre, apparently, is that every romantic male character is going to be the brooding bad boy, the shadow daddy. But their relationship is very unhealthy, very codependent and it's terrible.
Ashley:Mari, I vote that one of our future reads is a book where the female is the morally gray shadow daddy and that the male main character is just the average human. It exists.
Kelly:Write it down. It does exist. It does exist, it exists. Write it down, it does exist, it does exist. It was the book by Sebastian Nothwell.
Mari:So that was terrible.
Kelly:That is a terrible relationship. That is not romance, this one not Sebastian's, one Sebastian's was great.
Ashley:Sebastian does know wrong.
Jonathan:Okay, cool, cool, cool cool. I want to make sure of that, because those statements were close, yeah.
Kelly:While Rhiannon is an interesting character, she fills mostly the typical trope of a bisexual, sex-crazed nymphomaniac.
Jonathan:I just thought you got to get it in because you're a writer, you could die, so you're trying to have some fun. Well, yeah, sure you're a writer, you could die.
Kelly:So you're trying to have some fun. Yeah sure, I mean, I guess there's that, but it's also the fact that she's just you know it's like, it's plain, like that's a common trope in fantasy literature. That is someone's bisexual, then they're banging everything left and right or they're evil, or they're both, or they're evil right, or they're evil or both. So so we fall into that. We fall into that trope and stereotype.
Jonathan:I chalked it up to her being in the writer's quadrant and anticipating death would find her sooner rather than later. So she's going to have a good time.
Kelly:But not every person was doing that. She was doing that and it becomes a question of was she doing that because she's bisexual, and that was the justification for it? Was she doing that because she's bisexual, and that was the justification for it? So it's just not a good thing to write characters like that, because that is a very common trope in fantasy. That gets a lot of criticism, and for good reason.
Mari:I would say it's a trope in fiction because I mean it's in sci-fi too a lot, All right, so Spice too a lot, All right, so spice. For me I would say the spice is a four for all the things that a lot of things you guys already mentioned in romance topic, which is that representation was very well done. It was done very like organically, I thought, in terms of like there were multiple genders, more than just binary, and there was very like normative attitudes towards, like you, grown consenting people are going to do what grown consenting people do and it doesn't matter as long as everyone's grown and consenting. And also I thought in general the tone of the book was pretty sex positive, Like I didn't feel like there was any like sex wasn't a shameful thing or a bad thing. So in that context I thought the spice was pretty good.
Mari:As far as the first book they didn't involve it it was fine. I'm not the number one fan of them together, so the spice wasn't like mind blowing to me. There was a scene in the second book that I thought was infinitely better.
Kelly:But we're not talking about that book right now so
Ashley:four for spice. I agree on the four for spice. Give it the same. I thought I thought it wasn't every chapter Right. I thought the tension was reasonable. I thought you know the expectation. I thought the little crush on Dane, you know, for the first half or the first third of the book was reasonable. I thought it was all just very tasteful. You know, like you were saying, mari, with the, the exposure and the, the normalcy of relationships and sex drives and, I think, my thoughts on the bisexuality of some of the characters. I've never read the 100. Have you guys watched or read the 100? So I watched the.
Ashley:TV series and it's very dystopian, but it's futuristic dystopian. And so the I was, I was reading an article about it at one point, um, and I loved the series, but it did, uh, divert from the books, is my understanding. However, the thought process was, you know, sexuality should be fluid, in that they had a healthy respect for both genders and so the attraction was for both genders. It wasn't male for female, female for male. They normalized it and I thought that that was such a poignant point for that story and I see it here as well.
Ashley:If life is going to be short, you have a short life expectancy. You could die at any moment. You could just look at a dragon, you know the wrong dragon, the wrong way, and you're going to be incinerated at any point at your time in Basquiat. So all of those things, I thought, made the spice that existed and presented very appealing. It wasn't thrown in your face, it wasn't tasteless, it wasn't raunchy, and when taryn said should I get the wing leader when they were trying to develop violet signet, I rolled out of my chair like that's hilarious. It was good writing, uh. So four for me. I was happy with it interesting I'm.
Jonathan:I'm gonna give it a three for spice. It I didn't you know what happened was few and far between, but I almost want to know more about. I think there might have been more spice between sagail and taryn. You know what I mean, like those emotions I I think that's dare I say.
Ashley:Curious.
Jonathan:No, but if this is a faded mate story, I think the faded the mates are Taryn and Seagal.
Kelly:Hit me, kelly. I don't know the spice, I guess was above average. It seemed like there was more than some of the books we've read in the past. It was definitely more descriptive and in depth. The it was definitely more descriptive and in-depth. The biggest problem I had with it it's not like it really did anything for the plot. It didn't really advance their relationship or anything. It was just sex for the sake of sex, which is fine, and I agree that it was nice that there was no real stigma attached to having sex like there is in some other books. It wasn't made like it was a big deal, so that was nice. But other than that, I just I don't know that there's anything extraordinary about it that makes it that much better than anything else we've read per se.
Mari:Any other fan theories that we would like to talk about before we ask the final question?
Jonathan:Fan theories. Or theories, or whatever you have If you're going to do it.
Mari:Jonathan yeah, I mean it is a fan theory.
Jonathan:If you're going to do it.
Ashley:Jonathan, you got to limit your time.
Jonathan:I think the fan theory would be best saved for the Iron Flame. I think that's. I'll hold back, but that's a date that's.
Ashley:Pandora's box.
Jonathan:For me. I have like 50 fan theories.
Mari:I had one question for everybody before we do the kissing question At the end of Fourth Wing. Were you guys surprised by the end?
Ashley:Listen, if there's a human that didn't gasp in that last chapter, that last page, I want to meet them. Kelly, did you see that coming?
Kelly:Which thing are we talking about?
Mari:Her brother being alive.
Kelly:I mean, I didn't see it coming, but it didn't really shock me or anything. Ugh, because there was no reason to care about whether he was alive or dead. There was no reason for you, as the reader, to care about whether he was alive or dead.
Jonathan:there was no reason for you as the reader, to care about whether he was alive or dead correct.
Kelly:I agree with kelly it's not like it was a character that you knew, that you've had time with or anything like that, that died and it turns out to be alive, but there was.
Ashley:As the reader, you have no vested interest in whether he's alive or dead I mean, but I think it really contributes to her character development, her own trauma, her own family disconnects, as well as the the codependency of you know her, her relationship with her sister, even oh yeah, I mean sure do we think it's a kissing book?
Mari:I can go first, since I've been going first. In my opinion, actually, no, not this first book. I think things probably would have happened as they did even if Zayden and Violet hadn't been in a relationship, in an amorous relationship. I yeah, that's that's my.
Ashley:So I would argue that it's a kissing book, specifically if, if for nothing else than for taryn and segale if we take violet and zayden, they don't have to be together right this relationship could end up not working out and one of them could die, especially based off of what we know with other riders who have turned Venon and their dragon and what happens with their dragons after the fact and try not to spoil too much I think something is definitely going to happen fatally to Violet or Zayden, and I don't know that either of them will come back from it. But I will say that something happening to either Taryn or Sigail as a mated pair would be devastating in book one or two, and so I think for that reason it's a kissing book.
Jonathan:I do not think this is a kissing book, but I do think it is a very fun and interesting fantasy book. So I don't even know that I would at this point label it romanticy Kelly what'd you think?
Kelly:It's not a kissing book, and while I think Ashley has a valid point, I would say that we don't see enough of Tarn and Seagal's relationship for me to think that that is important. Enough of a part of the book for it to make it a romantic book. Very interesting.
Ashley:I'm the outlier guys.
Mari:Anything else before we wrap it up?
Ashley:For the sake of everyone, I think we need to say no, because we can find something yeah.
Mari:Please All right. Thanks for listening to Swords and Soulmates. Before we go, make sure to check out our show notes, rate review and subscribe to us on your podcast app of choice. It helps others to find us. Follow us on Instagram at Swords and Soulmates, or join our Facebook page of Swords and Soulmates. Check us out on our website of SwordsandSoulmatescom or on YouTube, tiktok and Pinterest with the same username. If you'd like to offer a suggestion for a future episode or you'd like to give your opinion, feedback, etc. Reach out to us in any of the options above or email us. If you want to read along with us as we prep for a new episode, follow us on Goodreads at Of Swords and Soulmates, or for chapter-by-chapter interaction on the Fable app at the Of Swords and Soulmates book club. We hope you'll join us in two weeks for our next episode when we read Iron Flames by Rebecca Yaros. You
